Reconstruction talk:Proto-Japonic/kuni

Etymology

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Kwékwlos, Mellohi!): The Southern Ryukyuan evidence allows us to reconstruct PJ *koni, and not **kuni, and I want to suggest a connection to Baekje 鞬 (*k(j)ə-n, “big, great”, also spelled variously as コニ or コ). I believe that the Japanese admired their wide country/land; here's an example from MYS.13.3236:

空見津 / 倭國 / 青丹吉 / 常山越而 / 山代之 / 管木之原 / 血速舊 / 于遅乃渡 / 隴屋之 / 阿後尼之原尾 / 千歳爾 / 闕事無 / 万歳爾 / 有通将得 / 山科之 / 石田之社之 / 須馬神爾 / 奴左取向而 / 吾者越徃 / 相坂山遠

(too lazy to transliterate or translate...)

Chuterix (talk) 16:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Impossible. In the first place, vowel of 鞬 is o₂, not o₁ and never changes into u in Old Japanese. And Ryukyuan equivalents are totally borrowed from mainland. kuni originally means region/land/homeland, Ryukyuans already have *sima in that sense, the meaning as country/nation/state is relatively newer.

This term seems to be originally a mainland specific compound which is something like *kó «粉, "powder" (露出形: 黄 *kói, "yellow")» + *núi «丹, "soil, especially red clay", (ryukyuan equivalent is *mi, indicating strange *mʲ/n shift)» → *kónúi, in the meaning of "land, clay". (btw I think to use -y in PJ is bad because it makes misunderstanding as if independent consonant *y can stands as a final consonant even it don't contribute any descendents and their inflections)

If it were from PJ, the second vowel must dropped and turned to -N. It also can be *kuni as part of proper nouns; in Yonaguni, 与那国 yonaguni is /dunaN/, both of vowels have dropped off and shortened into /N/.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 19:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ IIRC Vovin reconstructs this vowel because it is deleted due to the law that consonant clusters must not exist in Japonic. Chuterix (talk) 20:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ P.S. *khunī would be expected in mainland (Nakijin) Kunigami. Chuterix (talk) 20:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The uniformity of the Ryukyuan terms does suggest a later borrowing. Compare the variety of forms seen in the descendants of Proto-Japonic *konpo or *kora. For Proto-Japonic *konuy, all of the Ryukyuan terms are basically the same as mainland Japanese 国 (kuni). This would only happen if the term were a borrowing some time after the languages split apart. Were this an inheritance from the proto language, we would expect to see instead a similar degree of variance as we see with other terms. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr: This could happen in PJ *koruma (“car; wheel”). Chuterix (talk) 21:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Re: *koruma, I suspect you're basing that on the Ryukyuan terms. However, the uniformity of Ryukyuan terms again suggests a later borrowing, not an inheritance. This would mean that you're reconstructing a proto form based on what is likely a post-proto borrowing from mainland Japanese. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah... Chuterix (talk) 00:31, 27 July 2023 (UTC)