Talk:linggam

Needs more justification

@Mlgc1998 I think your entry requires more proof of attestation. Also as for the definition, how do you know the word "linggam" is used in Tagalog to mean a "phallic representation"? Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:28, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser y..yo...you wanna see att..attestation for "phallic representation"?? hahaha. In Google Books, there's a 1993 book there that uses "linggam" in a full Tagalog sentence to mean the lingam, but in Google Search like in social media posts, ...porn sites, spa sites, and other blog sites, there are people talking about linggam massage and they're denying that it is an "extra service" but have graphic pictures showing how to perform the linggam massage on men... and the cost... for the service... These can be searched with keywords like "ng "linggam"" and both English, Tagalog, Cebuano attestation can be found informally. Mlgc1998 (talk) 02:34, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Each definition needs at least three attestations. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:21, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: I have doubts about both of your definitions. For the first definition, I don't think it would reach three attestations (and also the burden of proof in proving that the attestation actually means "phallic representation" and not something else). For the second definition, if ever this is legit, it should refer to the massage itself, and not the happy ending, I would think. Why do you think it refers to the "happy ending" and not the "type of massage"? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:24, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser ...uh...umm have you ever done the massage yourself? hahaha "massage" is a euphemism for the act of a handjob. Have you seen the said graphic pictures above? lol They are doing the same thing, ...massaging a man's phallus. you made me look at the image guide again and they are just doing/rubbing the handjob in different parts of the male genitalia. There are more available attestation for the 2nd sense than the 1st, but if you remove the first, then we will only have the 2nd left without context, kinda like pokpok before I added the original sense. Mlgc1998 (talk) 05:49, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Also, there's more attestation coming out in Google Books with just "lingam", albeit with weird adult-rated titles and content... Mlgc1998 (talk) 06:14, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Even if that's the case, those two things are still slightly different. A "happy ending" is a more general term for the handjob itself. The massage is the overall massage. Again, you saying that there's attestation does not necessarily mean that it's a valid attestation. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:09, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Basically, "lingam message" ≠ handjob", also "lingam massage" ≠ "happy ending". Or else, you should add them as synonyms. They're related, but not the same thing. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser a hand job is the general "act of stimulating someone's penis or scrotum by someone else's hand". Look at exactly what they are doing here. Calling that a massage is more of an excuse euphemism or synonym than calling it a hand job outright. They are doing exactly that, "stimulating someone's penis or scrotum by someone else's hand". The overall massage you speak of is what one informally calls a hand job, particularly on male genitalia that a Lingam massage does. If you've never masturbated before, the process requires you to basically massage your penis... gently... then/or vigorously. See massage (“to rub and knead (someone's body or a part of a body)”). Also, the attestation available for the first sense under "lingam" are all from publications in Google Books, albeit in adult-rated books... It's not a matter of who is to provide proof of attestation, it is a matter of, do you seriously want me to put a bunch of porn quotations in this entry? hahahahha Mlgc1998 (talk) 07:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Also, see rub and tug, Handjob#Prevalence in massage parlors, Erotic massage. Some of these kinds of massage parlors are illegal in PH. There was news before of a police raid with many massage ladies running from the police in the news. They are justifying it as a "massage" for that reason, but that is the underworld of massage parlors. Mlgc1998 (talk) 07:33, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: As long as attestation can be provided, I can remove the verification request. Then we can discuss if they're valid attestations. If not, we have to delete the definition.

Calling it a massage means it's a service transaction. Calling it just a handjob is not necessarily a service transaction. Obvious difference. That's why they're not synonyms. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:23, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser massage doesn't have a specific sense pinning it to service transaction. Anyone can give someone a massage without paying anything. I can massage myself. massage my head. massage my hand. Mlgc1998 (talk) 08:50, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: It's quite simple really. Don't you think the usage of the word "linggam" would be limited to establishments? We would know if there are attestations listed here. Do you think the word "linggam" would refer to a wife providing a handjob for her husband? I don't think so. It would be in a context of a service provided by an establishment. That's my point. Anyway, provide attestations please. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser uhhm... it's not limited to just establishments and yes, a wife could in theory provide a handjob for her husband if she whispered to him proposing to give him a "linggam", but of course, we would not hear such situations as much because it is a vulgar term and sexual topics are considered taboo in ph or generally far east asian societies. Anyways, ok, I didn't think you were so eager to read some raunchy quotes hahahaha. Mlgc1998 (talk) 10:36, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: It would be in reference to a service offered by an establishment, not actually the term for it though. It's simple, if you can provide 3 attestations for "linggam" not in the context of a service provided by an establishment, then we'll see. What are you talking about raunchy quotes? If you look at sexual words in English, they also have quotations from erotic literature. We're professional here. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:54, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser @Mlgc1998 I will *professionally* reply here.

You can remove the "lingam" definition, change it to lingam massage and add some Sanskrit definition instead at the etymology if context is needed. I mean it could mean lingam as in Shiva's symbol (like when other Asian cultures build statues of it, see India and Thailand for example) but not sure if that's Tagalog or actually English and appears more in academic settings like Asian history classes.

I agree that it's limited to a specific kind of establishment (in current widespread use). What's more correct is to retain only "happy ending" and "extra service". It is a service transaction but not a legal one and considered a sexual one hence likened to prostitution. Also I have doubts that those massage people actually studied lingam massage in some massage course (like in vocational school) for it to be considered an actual lingam massage or if they actually bothered to learn. Otherwise, it's just paid sexual act disguised in some term. Ysrael214 (talk) 13:05, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Agree with you on your added comment on it probably being a general sexual massage, not actually sure if there are specifics to a "lingam massage" that have to be studied, but probably, you're right. As for the technical definition of Shiva's symbol, I think attestation is still needed. Thanks for adding your insight. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Added the lingam statue to linga though, because that's more certain. Ysrael214 (talk) 14:23, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Yup, I saw it. Added clarificatory info, about being an idol.

@Mlgc1998: Attestation has to be permanently recorded media. Twitter tweets are easily deletable, not permanent. If we're talking about online sources, online news articles are suitable, or publications, or even literary works. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Furthermore, the citation you provided from "Cantata of the Warrior Woman, Daragang Magayon: An Epic", the quotation clearly does not refer to the symbol of Shiva, but an actual penis. So I don't think it's attestation for the Shiva symbol "lingam". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

They're talking about a lingam object there. It literally says "sa lamig ng bayag na bato". Afaik, men's testicles aren't cold and made of stone. Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:33, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

There is some form of way where Twitter posts are made into permanently recorded media, which is likely why the editors in sleepwell put those. Otherwise, they can be cached in archive.org Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: On second reading, yeah you're right, the "Cantata" quote does seem to refer to an inanimate object. As for the Twitter tweets, it seems that a recent debate on this is in your favor a bit, in the sense that the conclusion of the vote was "no consensus". See the voting [here https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2022/September#Twitter]. Although I would add, you're adding the interpretation of "handjob" into the word. Not all "handjobs" are "linggam" in this sense. It's clearly restricted to service given. Please edit accordingly. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I put "handjob" just like other quotation translations do with what's defined in the sense. What would I put instead in bold in the translation? Just "lingam"? Mlgc1998 (talk) 13:43, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Definitely not "handjob". The purpose of the quotations is to justify the definition provided. In this case, I think it fits more the service definition Ysrael214 and I have said. In my opinion, since it's a service, the definition shouldn't be "handjob" (which is a general term). I also don't think it should be "extra service" or "happy ending" since it implies that it's done as an extra or at the end, when the service is the main thing in this case, and said by this random FB post I found here that it's not an extra service. I kinda think that the definition should be "lingam massage", and even if the masseurs didn't study the actual massage itself (we never know), I think the intent really is to provide that massage, as also indicated by the FB post I shared. What do you think, @Ysrael214? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:32, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser It is done at the end of a full body massage, and of course a secret offer (possibly when the customer is in a good mood after a legit massage). Would someone really offer that in the menu in public when you enter lol, they'd be arrested. Also it's extra since most likely it's not included the main menu for the reason earlier (You have to pay an additional fee P3K-P5K according to news reports besides the massage itself which costs like what P500?). Random FB post (especially coming from a massage institution) doesn't automatically disqualify the extra service and happy ending definition. Of course, they're going to defend that it's not. You have to consult on how the customers, authorities, and also news people use it to determine the truth if it is or not (especially on a controversial topic). To compromise both sides that it is and isn't (because it can mean both things, the real one with the intent of massaging that part if ever or just some trick to get customers to pay them for the happy ending), I still propose that "lingam massage" be an added definition but the slang/euphemistic use is the happy ending and extra service. (Why do you think the term "extra service" would be invented to mean that?) On handjob, hmm maybe as an extension but that's not exactly what linggam is. @Mlgc1998 has a point that sure you can use that to your wife but I think it's more of a subjective term and not a widespread use of a term. I can use "butas" to a window because technically it can be one but inaccurate on how "butas" actually means. Ysrael214 (talk) 15:25, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Different spakol massage establishments do their service in different ways. It is discussed here. They will of course deny any rumor of an "extra service" because this can alert the authorities that they are doing potentially illegal extra services, which warrants a visit/inspection by an NBI officer (undercover or not) for alleged accusations of "human trafficking", which if they were found out or not, a corrupt NBI officer may ask for bribes either way, which is a sales loss. In reality, as described by people in the reddit post. Sometimes, they do it as an "extra service" after a legit massage that a customer ordered, so that the massage place can justify that the customer had only come there for that legit massage they performed and deny any potential illegal service done after. Sometimes, the customer specifically goes there just for that "linggam massage" or because he was offered that service specifically in informal convos, such as in the screenshot of the Twitter post here. Sometimes, since it is a street slang term, people also use the term to request or hint at a handjob with their romantic partner, such as in the screenshots of this twitter post. The venue of the said "linggam massage" is not only in a spa, but can also be done by someone invited at their home to perform a "massage", which that reddit post describes as a "home service linggam". The ones trained in the supposed "legit linggam" charge at a high price and have strict rules of no touching the massage therapist. The ones that aren't, the reddit post commenters describe as "Yung handjob with extra steps, totoo yan. Lalu na when it comes to how the therapist plays with your other sensitive parts." The only difference with a traditional generalized handjob is that they move the hands in "tantric" ways in different parts of the penis and testicles. If a spa offering spakol services is not convinced with just that, they make sure they also give the traditional massage on the body to show it is entirely a professional service, to avoid any threat from the government. One commenter also says: "Anyway ive tried both spakol and linggam. The og spakol eh may semi legit masahe to legit masahe pero sure na may extra after.. yung ngayon e extra na lang talaga yung focus e. Yung spa na may linggam legit masahe talaga na di lang sila after sa finishing dun sila treatment so no touch, tapos all inclusive ang bayad kasi nga di sila tumatanggap ng extra", so a massage parlor denying that they offer "Extra service" is a façade, as per the last phrase there, because from their perspective, they are doing a legit a "lingam massage" service, lest they end up like the poor massage parlor owner here in this news report. The NBI still monitors massage parlors of such activities, as reported in this news report here. “They operate as massage parlors but in disguise as they are actually a prostitution den where victim attendants were being offered for sexual activity in exchange for money,” "Bolido said the six women they rescued were reportedly forced by the establishment’s owners to provide sexual services for their clients in exchange for money." As you can see, massage therapists are only victims of "human trafficking" here to be "rescued" by the authorities and only the owner of such parlors caught offering such "Extra service" are to be penalized by the law. Such is the massage parlor underworld. Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:45, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser @Mlgc1998 I think this is one of those grey areas that we have to recognize both the legitimate and the illegitimate meaning. Ysrael214 (talk) 18:21, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Quotes

@Ysrael214 Just wondering why you removed the quotations in this entry. Thanks! Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Too much revealing things from social media X, that it seems to break some peoples privacy that when i search for reddit r/Tagalog, this word comes up in Google. But still, this word is used to mean those. Ysrael214 (talk) 10:44, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: You could've just removed the social media quotes, and left the rest, if that's the case. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:49, 2 August 2023 (UTC)