Talk:patruelis
Latest comment: 1 year ago by Al-Muqanna in topic RFV discussion: May 2021–March 2023
This entry has survived Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).
Please do not re-nominate for verification without comprehensive reasons for doing so.
Latin.
might be PC, but not in L&S and others. 15:10, 18 May 2021 (UTC) — This unsigned comment was added by 2003:DE:3718:E961:C969:B1CE:6F39:3718 (talk).
- L&S say that Cicero used it once as a substantive to mean "a father's sister's son, a cousin". LaNe also has "van vaders broer of (zelden) zuster (af)stammend". Good enough to keep? This, that and the other (talk) 12:30, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- Gaffiot (also among the References on the page) has 4 cites, including Cicero. Parallel in morphology and meaning to matruelis. That would seem to do it. It would be nice to have the full cites on the page, if possible. DCDuring (talk) 14:39, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Al-Muqanna Can you take a look at this? I've added all the quotes from Gaffiot to Citations:patruelis, but they need to be sorted by sense, and maybe some further cleanup would be good. I'm not sure why there are two very close adjective senses. 70.172.194.25 06:32, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- To be clear, what's being challenged is that the adjectival sense can apply to a paternal aunt as well as a paternal uncle. Gaffiot says nothing on that front (his adjectival definition is "relating to a first cousin"). The standard term for pertaining to a paternal aunt is a completely different word, amitīnus. Might seem like pedantry but a lot of languages are very precise about this kind of thing. The OLD only gives "father's brother", and since LaNe doesn't give any citations the Cicero reference in L&S is probably our best bet (and might be what they based it on). Unfortunately, having tracked down the reference, the patrueli is a manuscript variant that's deleted in modern editions. So I'm not sure ultimately. On the whole it's probably OK to mark it with "rarely", or "rarely, dubious", or something like that. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 14:34, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I noticed that it's a variant too (that's why it's in brackets on the Citations page), but I don't see any strong reason why that would stop us from quoting it at all. After all, it still has been published somewhere, whether or not it was in the original. I agree about adding the label if this is the only quote though, because it could have been a later mistaken addition. 70.172.194.25 14:51, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- The Loeb edition makes clear that it's not a mistake, just superfluous ("the mss. needlessly add patrueli after fratri suo […] Clodius’ mother was a sister of Celer’s father") so I'm happy to just have "rare". I've sorted the citations at Citations:patruelis (though there isn't much sorting to do, all of them are obviously adjectival pace Gaffiot)—the noun sense isn't challenged but L&S gives various citations for that under I.B if wanted. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 18:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I noticed that it's a variant too (that's why it's in brackets on the Citations page), but I don't see any strong reason why that would stop us from quoting it at all. After all, it still has been published somewhere, whether or not it was in the original. I agree about adding the label if this is the only quote though, because it could have been a later mistaken addition. 70.172.194.25 14:51, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- To be clear, what's being challenged is that the adjectival sense can apply to a paternal aunt as well as a paternal uncle. Gaffiot says nothing on that front (his adjectival definition is "relating to a first cousin"). The standard term for pertaining to a paternal aunt is a completely different word, amitīnus. Might seem like pedantry but a lot of languages are very precise about this kind of thing. The OLD only gives "father's brother", and since LaNe doesn't give any citations the Cicero reference in L&S is probably our best bet (and might be what they based it on). Unfortunately, having tracked down the reference, the patrueli is a manuscript variant that's deleted in modern editions. So I'm not sure ultimately. On the whole it's probably OK to mark it with "rarely", or "rarely, dubious", or something like that. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 14:34, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Al-Muqanna Can you take a look at this? I've added all the quotes from Gaffiot to Citations:patruelis, but they need to be sorted by sense, and maybe some further cleanup would be good. I'm not sure why there are two very close adjective senses. 70.172.194.25 06:32, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Gaffiot (also among the References on the page) has 4 cites, including Cicero. Parallel in morphology and meaning to matruelis. That would seem to do it. It would be nice to have the full cites on the page, if possible. DCDuring (talk) 14:39, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Cited, I've added annotations and a clarifying reference to the citation on the main entry page to make it airtight. When resolved the senses can probably be collapsed, with "or (rare) sister". —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 03:35, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
RFV-passed, fell through a cracks a bit. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 19:13, 18 March 2023 (UTC)