Talk:siodło

Etymology

@Shumkichi Why did you remove reference to *sědlo and *selo? The meaning hamlet, village and placenames like Długosiodło most likely continue *sědlo, not *sedъlo, with the outcome of Lechitic umlaut probably influenced by *selo (see those lemmas in Derksen). Both of those PSl. words IMO should stay mentioned here. // Silmeth ^@talk 10:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

• @Silmethule Eee, no? "Siodło" comes from *sed- "to sit" + the nominative suffix "-ъlo". If it was influenced by "*selo" in any way, it would most likely not include the consonant cluster "-dl-" and the vowel in the first syllable's nucleus would be different. Give me any source that proves that there was some morphological or semantic contamination from "*selo". Shumkichi (talk) 12:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shumkichi: Derksen, s.v. *sědlo ‘seat’ (different word than *sedъlo ‘saddle’!): If this is a Proto-Slavic formation, we must assume that in those languages where *dl- > *l- the etymon merged with *selò. In West Slavic as well these two etyma seem to have infuenced one another, cf. Pl. Długosiodło with *e in the root. (bold mine) // Silmeth ^@talk 12:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@Silmethule IMO one source is not enough, and the ones that I've read don't mention the mutual influence. Besides, it's just this author's opinion, not an established fact agreed upon by historical linguists who would do serious etymological research to look for any contamination. And he uses the words "seem to have influenced", he has no proof. He just assumes so because West Slavic languages are an a outlier with their retention of the archaic consonant clusters so he wants everything to be neat and even; he WANTS there to be some contamination that he can account for in every single Slavic language. I understand this striving for perfection but languages don't work this way. But do whatever you want, I won't remove it this time even if I disagree with the author's opinion. Shumkichi (talk) 12:20, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shumkichi: I think you read a bit too much intention into his ‘wanting to see’ some contamination, he just tries to explain what he sees. He gives the -siodło part of Długosiodło as continuing *sědlo, it can’t be a direct non-influenced descendant as that’d be unattested *-siadło, you either need to assume that -siodło here was influenced by something to have /o/ (as if from *e, could be either *sedъlo or *selo, I guess), or is actually from *sedъlo and the name originally meant “long saddle”.

On the other hand, Derksen himself gives only Długosiodło for Polish among the descendants (he doesn’t list siodło on its own at all), and neither WSJP nor SJP PWN list the meaning “hamlet, village” for siodło, only Doroszewski gives it (“5. daw. «sioło, osada»”). So maybe it’d be better to just remove this meaning then. Or move it to the end and note in the etymology section that this last meaning (seen in Długosiodło) might continue *sědlo under influence of either *sedъlo or *selo?

But then Boryś(?, cited as (Bor)) in WSJP for sioło notes such (Old) Polish words as przysiodłek, osiedle and names Siedlce, Siedlno – but he gives *sedlo as the proto-form, failing to note lengthening of *e to *ě before *-d (Winter’s Law) and ignores such forms as Czech sídlo (“seat, residence”) pointing to *ě (as opposed to sedlo (“saddle”)) – but even if the proto-form is *sedlo (with short *e), then still it’s just variant reconstruction of *sědlo (not *sedъlo) and should be mentioned here (if we keep the ‘hamlet, village’ meaning).

BTW, are there any other recent(ish) dictionaries dealing with the *selo/*sědlo/*sedъlo words? ESSJa and Sławski haven’t reached S (yet), and I don’t know/have access to many others :( // Silmeth ^@talk 13:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

WSJP doesn't mention any contamination. Maybe there is some semantic overlap, idk. Btw. why can't "Długosiodło" be a simple compound of "długi" + "-o-" + "siodło"? I know the name was attested in the 13th century but it still can be a compound of already fully independent words. Shumkichi (talk) 13:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shumkichi: WSJP doesn’t mention any contamination because they assume proto-form *sedlo (with short *e) which straightforwardly gives Polish siodło (instead of *sědlo which would yield Polish siadło), no contamination needed in their story. But this doesn’t make sense because of Winter’s Law and other Slavic languages evidence (even if you reject Winter’s Law, Czech shows different vowels in *sědlo and *sedъlo). And they also derive Polish sioło from *sedlo (and assume there East Slavic influence on the -dl- group here) while this can easily be derived from *selo without any external influence instead (so, they have the influence backwards). And in the entry for siodło they don’t note the meaning ‘village’ at all, so they don’t need to deal with it there either. // Silmeth ^@talk 13:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@Shumkichi: and as for Długosiodło – I don’t know, Derksen is the only source I’ve seen for the name’s etymology. I guess it’s just that ‘saddle’ for a village name doesn’t make much sense, while the ‘seat, residence, village’ meaning is also attested in Polish (OPl. przysiodłek, Pl. osiedle, Siedlce, etc.). // Silmeth ^@talk 13:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@Vininn126 You removed the whole part of etymology referring to the meaning of ‘village, settlement’ which seems to be related to PSl. *sědlo, Old Polish siadło, while keeping the meaning ‘hamlet, village’ (which doesn’t seem to continue the OPl. siodło from *sedъlo, but is rather at least influenced by siadło from *sědlo, s.v. in Derksen). Also see the discussion above. Why? // Silmeth ^@talk 12:59, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Me and @Sławobóg are working on sorting out the PS etymology Vininn126 (talk) 13:30, 3 May 2023 (UTC)