Rhymes talk:Polish/a-
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Shumkichi
- @Vininn126 Wait, by a superscript you mean a palatalisation maek, e.g. /pʲ/? -pia, -fia, etc. are, phonemically, /pja/ and /fja/, and the palatalisation of the preceding consonant, resulting in [fʲja], is a normal secondary process that also occurs in English but nobody marks it as we don't usually use such a detailed notation. Many linguists even doubt the existence of contrastive /kʲ gʲ xʲ/ and analyse them as underlying /kj gj xj/ with /-j-/ reduced to palatalisation before front vowels. Shumkichi (talk) 13:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Shumkichi I know that Polish palatalization is weaker, it's just they're also marked on our IPA charts if you go to a page with that sound. I was thinking it would give some consistency. If you think they should be /pja/ and not /pʲa/ then I'm okay with that, too. Other than that, is this how you think we should continue with the rhymes? Vininn126 (talk) 13:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Vininn126 I mean, they aren't /pʲa/ but [pʲja], if anything. I just checked it and pl wiktionary marks them correctly as [pʲja] but en wiktionary as /pʲa/. I don't know who created the template. Anyway, it is also inconsistent with what you can find even on en wikipedia which only says that /kʲ gʲ xʲ/ are phonemes. Shumkichi (talk) 13:29, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Shumkichi So which transcription would you prefer? And I'll take the lack of an answer as a "yes" and I'll add the other rhymes soonish :p Vininn126 (talk) 13:33, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- I'd go with /pja/, /fja/, /mja/, etc. As for /kʲ gʲ xʲ/, I don't know if they are contrastive as phonemes, and even if they are, are they contrastive as RHYMES alone? Shumkichi (talk) 13:36, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Shumkichi Okay. And well see that's what I was bringing up. Are we going with perfect rhymes? Are we gonna go the Hungarian route and simplify them? Vininn126 (talk) 13:41, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- I'll add that I took a peek at other rhyme dictionaries and this is how most list them. Yeah, it's an overwhelming amount. Vininn126 (talk) 13:46, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Vininn126 Idk, don't make me decide alone or someone with a better expertise will be pissed off :( I don't know much about the structure of rhymes in Polish. Shumkichi (talk) 13:49, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- The blind leading the blind. I think we should go this way due to the presedences of rhyme dictionaries before us. Plus having this foundation means adding new ones will be easier - the bulk is done. And hopefully we can get them automatically added. Perhaps @Tashi has thoughts. Vininn126 (talk) 13:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- If we decide to merge some rhymes - namely clusters and palatalized variants, we should at least agree upon a "standard". I think non-geminates would get the heading, and non-palatals would. Vininn126 (talk) 13:53, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- The blind leading the blind. I think we should go this way due to the presedences of rhyme dictionaries before us. Plus having this foundation means adding new ones will be easier - the bulk is done. And hopefully we can get them automatically added. Perhaps @Tashi has thoughts. Vininn126 (talk) 13:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Vininn126 Idk, don't make me decide alone or someone with a better expertise will be pissed off :( I don't know much about the structure of rhymes in Polish. Shumkichi (talk) 13:49, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- I'll add that I took a peek at other rhyme dictionaries and this is how most list them. Yeah, it's an overwhelming amount. Vininn126 (talk) 13:46, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Shumkichi Okay. And well see that's what I was bringing up. Are we going with perfect rhymes? Are we gonna go the Hungarian route and simplify them? Vininn126 (talk) 13:41, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- I'd go with /pja/, /fja/, /mja/, etc. As for /kʲ gʲ xʲ/, I don't know if they are contrastive as phonemes, and even if they are, are they contrastive as RHYMES alone? Shumkichi (talk) 13:36, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Shumkichi So which transcription would you prefer? And I'll take the lack of an answer as a "yes" and I'll add the other rhymes soonish :p Vininn126 (talk) 13:33, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Vininn126 I mean, they aren't /pʲa/ but [pʲja], if anything. I just checked it and pl wiktionary marks them correctly as [pʲja] but en wiktionary as /pʲa/. I don't know who created the template. Anyway, it is also inconsistent with what you can find even on en wikipedia which only says that /kʲ gʲ xʲ/ are phonemes. Shumkichi (talk) 13:29, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Shumkichi I know that Polish palatalization is weaker, it's just they're also marked on our IPA charts if you go to a page with that sound. I was thinking it would give some consistency. If you think they should be /pja/ and not /pʲa/ then I'm okay with that, too. Other than that, is this how you think we should continue with the rhymes? Vininn126 (talk) 13:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Vininn126:: Stolarski (2010) notes that "labial palatalized consonants were treated as independent phonemes and the glide /j/ was not marked in phonemic transcription. Such an interpretation stemmed from the fact that /i/ and /0/ were treated as one functional unit in Polish. [...] Consequently, labial palatalized consonants had to be treated as phonemes, since they were in parallel distribution with their non-palatal counterparts. The very existence of /j/ in such words was, therefore, inessential. Nowadays, however, in many Polish dialects, including standard Polish, the articulatory distinction between /i/ and /ɨ/ is clear and the distribution of the discussed consonants is predictable. They are always palatalized when followed by /i/ and always non-palatal when followed by /ɨ/." Thus, I'd add the glide /j/ to the transcription. As for the perfect rhymes, I have to be honest that I don't know what you're talking about. Could you be more specific? Tashi (talk) 15:54, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Tashi Thanks for the input, I've updated that with your suggestions. Essentially, it would be separating /akɛ/ and /akjɛ/ into separate categories, rather than being in the same group. So they'll have their own entries in the dictionary, rather than, say /akjɛ/ words being listed under /akɛ/ words. I personally think we should go for this, as other dictionaries have, too (note the Czech rhyming dictionary and the Finnish one here on Wiktionary). Also pinging @Shumkichi to update them. Vininn126 (talk) 11:27, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Vininn126 Notifying you here since I forgot to do so in the edit description. Shumkichi (talk) 12:50, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Tashi Thanks for the input, I've updated that with your suggestions. Essentially, it would be separating /akɛ/ and /akjɛ/ into separate categories, rather than being in the same group. So they'll have their own entries in the dictionary, rather than, say /akjɛ/ words being listed under /akɛ/ words. I personally think we should go for this, as other dictionaries have, too (note the Czech rhyming dictionary and the Finnish one here on Wiktionary). Also pinging @Shumkichi to update them. Vininn126 (talk) 11:27, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
Sources[edit]
- Stolarski, Ł. "Palatalization of consonants in Polish before /i /and /j/". In: Piotr P. Chruszczewski, Zdzisław Wąsik (Eds.), Languages in Contact. Wydawnictwo Wyższej Szkoły Filologicznej: Wrocław, pp. 163-177.