Talk:überwinden

The German page says this was not from über + winden, but from über + an old form of winnen, which would make much more sense. It says the winden idea was from a folk-etymology. 173.202.202.43 11:30, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I have a few points to mention:

1. "winnen" is not a German word.
2. Duden claims the etymology as "mittelhochdeutsch überwinden, überwinnen, althochdeutsch ubarwintan, ubarwinnan", thus not rejecting the etymon "winnan" and "wintan".
3. DWDS claims the etymology of "winden" as "Verb ahd. wintan (8. Jh.), mhd. winden, winten ‘(sich) drehen, um-, einwickeln, sich umdrehen, angreifen’".
4. The German page agrees with Duden that it derives from althochdeutsch ubarwinnan or ubarwintan, which is derived from winnan and wintan respectively. What it is claiming is that this verb is not directly formed from the modern-day "winden".
5. I shall edit the etymology to make this more clear.

--kc_kennylau (talk) 04:49, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

1. The simplex "winnen" actually survives to this day in dialects, but this is irrelevant. It definitely existed in Old High German.
2. Forms with nn and nd/nt existed alongside in Old and Middle High German as well Early Modern German. The question is does "überwinden" come from "über + winden" or is it some kind of alteration/variant of "über + winnen". Kluge says probably original, DWB says probably secondary, Pfeifer doesn't have an entry.
3. The etymology of "winden" (to wind) is not in doubt.
4. I've adapted it. 178.4.151.244 18:33, 11 May 2023 (UTC)