Talk:ґара

RFV discussion: July 2020–February 2022

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ґара

Rfv-sense: Ukrainian: --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)(Canada) car, automobile. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

This usage was once widespread in Western Canada. It's still used as slang but now the literary Canadian-Ukrainian word is "авто". The word is most notable in many older Canadian-Ukrainian songs sung at dances. It's tough to find written examples of this but here are a few:

• Polkas on the Prairies: Ukrainian Music and the Construction of Identity by Brian Cherwick, Page 174. Provides a translation from "Розїхав ґару, скидав черевики" to "I drove around by car, I took off my shoes". You can hear this usage in the song Гандзя by the D-Drifters-5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s8fw4x0eU4&feature=youtu.be&t=1709
• WikiSpiv 2018 ( https://www.lulu.com/shop/daniel-centore/wikispiv-2018/paperback/product-23689456.html ) includes "Model B Ford ґару маю" and "Залетіла в ґару муха" on page 53 as part of the lyrics to Gusting Winds by Freddie Chetyrbok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oA-lmUxeLk . Discaimer that I wrote WikiSpiv - I'm ultimately citing personal knowledge of the song which I got from an unrecorded interview with Ron Cahute for this entry.
• "Багато української молоді мішає англійську мову з українською. Часто сміємося зі слів 'до штору', 'ґара', 'степси' чи 'гавзи'. Але, якби ми прислухалися до наших занглізованих слів, то ми б менше сміялися, а більше червоніли б." published in "STUDENT" by "Ukrainian Canadian Students' Union" 1985 September. https://archive.org/details/student1985septe1885unse/page/5/mode/1up?q=%D2%90%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0

--Danielcentore (talk) 17:11, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Verified (?), just barely, considering Ukrainian is a well-documented language. --03:28, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Danielcentore: Could these quotes be added to the entry? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:53, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, Danielcentore, Kevlar67: I have checked again. I can't use any of the links, even long Youtube videos don't have a correct timings and examples above look dubious and grammatically incorrect. I won't insist on deletion of the entry, since this is a dialectal word and may not require the same verification. What shall we do? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:36, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Justinrleung, Kevlar67: Canadian Ukrainian is spoken by people multiple generations away from those who came from Ukraine, and declensions and other parts of grammar are often misused when compared with a more "pure" form of the language. I don't think that makes the dialect and its vocabulary any less real or less deserving of being documented thoroughly. The timing in the D-Drifters-5 video is at 29:05. The quotes in the Freddie Chetyrbok song take place at 0:28 and 2:00. I personally think the word belongs here - it is fairly common slang in the Canadian Ukainian dialect and it is used in at least two very popular songs sung in the Canadian-Ukrainian diaspora. Danielcentore (talk)

I have also found a fourth example: "...while those who say hochu vs khocho; rowbyty vs robyty; pejlo vs vidro; gara vs avto identify themselves as North American speakers of [Ukrainian]". Between Ukish and Oblivion: The Ukrainian Language in Canada Today - Danylo H. Struk on page 1. Danielcentore (talk)

@Danielcentore, Justinrleung, Kevlar67: I don't want by any means, suppress dialectal terms but we are following WT:CFI. If terms are not attested, they are not kept (deleted). The rules may not be the same for well-documented and poorly documented languages (there's a category for the latter but I don't remember where it is). Ukrainian belongs to the first group but it's hard to attest dialectal (mostly spoken) terms even for the first category. So maybe dialects shouldn't fall into the first category?. I also don't know think we should be adding any Ukrainian citations in Latin script or obvious misspellings from Internet (e.g. роз'їхав as розїхав). @Danielcentore, are you able to prepare three citations? We can review later. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:52, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

BTW, the citation "Часто сміємося зі слів 'до штору', 'ґара'" is a mention, not an actual use. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:57, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Justinrleung, Kevlar67: I've updated the entry with 4 quotations, please take a look if you think they're satisfactory. I found an additional 1965 entry which was phonetic but I transliterated it to Cyrillic using the table provided at the beginning of the book, as the book is supposed to use 1:1 Latin:Cyrillic correspondence. I personally see no reason phonetic Latin entries should not be admissible - it is somewhat common to write Canadian Ukrainian in Latin (I have an entire book from the 1970s which is Cyrillic on the left pages and Latin on the right, for example), and if we don't have any better alternative I think it suffices. The "розїхав" entry is not just a random quote from the internet, it is in a PhD thesis paper, and I'm reproducing it faithfully, with the typo. I did not include the mention, thank you for calling out the inadmissibility of that. Danielcentore (talk)

@Danielcentore: Thanks for your efforts. The quote from Struk (1998) is a mention as well, so it's probably no good if Canadian Ukrainian is to be treated the same as Standard Ukrainian (as in being stricter with attestation per WT:ATTEST and WT:WDL). I'm not sure what Ukrainian editors think, but I don't know if we should be converting Latin script into Cyrillic if the original source is in Latin script. Perhaps both Latin and Cyrillic should be listed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:56, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Justinrleung: I've included the Latin script in parentheses after "original text:", hope that seems like a satisfactory solution. I'm not sure I agree that we should be as strict with Ukrainian-Canadian given how few speakers it has compared to standard Ukrainian and the fact that most written materials still used some form of literary Ukrainian, but I'm okay with removing the entry in this case given that we'll still have 3 entries. Danielcentore (talk) 05:27, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Danielcentore: Also, "Gusting Winds" seems to be in Cherwick (1999: 136). The way you've cited it makes it look like it was Daniel Centore (you) who wrote the song. It should be attributed to the actual songwriters, not to you. I guess there's an issue of independence if this song and the song by D-Drifters-5 are recorded in Cherwick (1999), and we're citing the same source for the written lyrics. They are technically independent if it weren't for Cherwick, so I think it'd be fine. We just need to give the songs the right credits. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:47, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Justinrleung: The Gusting Winds lyrics in the WikiSpiv book were independently researched from before I was aware of the Cherwick source (and the Cherwick one has a few mistakes where WikiSpiv does not, though this particular quote is identical in both). "Розїхав ґаром, скидав черевики" is from the song "Гандзя" by the "D-Drifters-5" on their album "D-Drifters 5 – Sing and play traditional and original Ukrainian songs" and "Залетіла в ґару муха" is from the song "Gusting Winds" by Freddie Chetyrbok in the album "Pub with no beer". I found that there's a quote-song template and switched to using that, no longer referencing Cherwick or WikiSpiv anymore at all. How does that look? Danielcentore (talk) 05:27, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Danielcentore: I think it looks great now. @Atitarev, what do you think? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:32, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Danielcentore, Justinrleung: Thank you both. I am OK to pass it and I agree that maybe some regional dialects could use less strict rules but we don't have these rules in place yet. For example, an Israeli Russian word мазга́н (mazgán) is not known in Russian but since satisfactory citations have been provided, we are keeping it. Relaxing CFI rules would allow an influx of made up words, which should be prevented.

@Danielcentore, you may also try searching for spellings like "гара" (or its inflected form), since letter "ґ" is still considered rather marginal in Ukrainian and is often replaced with "г" with or without affect on pronunciation. For example газе́та (hazéta) may be pronounced ґазе́та (gazéta) in the diaspora (only) but can be spelled "газета" regardless of the pronunciation. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:42, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

RFV-passed. Thadh (talk) 12:14, 27 February 2022 (UTC)