Talk:պորտ
Latest comment: 4 years ago by Vahagn Petrosyan
@Fay Freak, is the derivation of Aramaic "navel" from the prt root as Jastrow implies reasonable? CAL does not seem to accept it. --Vahag (talk) 14:26, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan Yeah. פְּרָתָא (prāṯā, “umbilical cord”) can be compared with Arabic فَرْث (farṯ, “entrails”), and the connection to Aramaic פְּרַת (praṯ, “to tear apart”), Arabic فَرَثَ (faraṯa, “to scatter”) is easy to see. Aramaic פְרַשׁ (praš, “to cut off, abschneiden”), cognate to Arabic فَرَسَ (farasa, “to tear up”), seems to be related, also Aramaic פְּרַס (pras, “to divide”) (Arabic س (s) stems from Proto-Semitic *s and š while ś yields ش (š), but Aramaic ס (s) stems from *s and *ś (also שׂ (s) if from *ś, but this is more Hebrew), while *š is kept שׁ (š). Aramaic ת (t) can be from Proto-Semitic *ṯ and *t, Hebrew ת (t) is from *t because *ṯ yields Hebrew שׁ (š)).
- But I see the vowels given for the Aramaic do not fit պորտ (port). It fits more Aramaic פַּרתּא (partā) that allegedly means “excrements”, “dung“, but based on Arabic فَرْث (farṯ, “the interiors of a belly, Innereien”) it probably means the interiors of a belly or the bowels, and this is the meaning you need, because Armenian պորտ (port) means “centre” as it means “belly” and “interior”. Fay Freak (talk) 15:13, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak, thanks, I'll get back to this later. փոր (pʻor) and փորոտի (pʻoroti) also look similar to this family. --Vahag (talk) 17:03, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Now փորոտի (pʻoroti, “entrails”) is a suspicious word to say the least. It looks like borrowed from the Arabic plural فُرُوث (furūṯ). You have -ոտի (-oti) as “forming adjectives”. Maybe փոր (pʻor, “abdomen, bowels”) is back-formed. Fay Freak (talk) 17:10, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- These are interesting ideas, but the formal problems are great. The Semitic p, t and ṯ should have given փ (pʻ), թ (tʻ) and թ (tʻ). -ոտի (-oti) has a collective meaning which I had not added. The vowels are not regular, as you said. Also, Arabic borrowings in the 5th century are impossible. For պորտ (port) I was thinking an Iranian mediation. --Vahag (talk) 10:52, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan Though the likelihood cannot be great, where does the dogma come from that Arabic borrowings in the 5th century are impossible? There were groups of Arabs not only at the southern border of the Byzantine Empire but already southeast Anatolia, albeit minorities. From Arabic criminal activities in the Byzantine Empire the Arabic word for the thief لِصّ (liṣṣ) has been collected, and I remind you of խաբեմ (xabem, “to dupe”) again. I note that there were even Yemenites in Syria; it’s where they collected the word فِرْسِك (firsik, “peach”), still peculiar to Yemen (and they brought it to Spain because the population of Al-Andalus was largely composed of emigrated Yemenite L2 speakers, which is the cause of many Andalusi peculiarities, but nothing of their languages alone is left). I think even Old South Arabian borrowings into Armenian were possible, though perhaps there is no trace, as even for Arabic we can see only few relations with the available material. Fay Freak (talk) 12:56, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak, see Hübschmann for Arabic borrowings. Since the Arabs first appeared in Armenia during the conquests of the 7th century, it is logical to expect that earlier borrowings are unlikely, unless we are dealing with an w:ru:экзотизм connected with Arabs, such as the words for "to cheat" or "thief". I remind you that the Armenian homeland is in the Armenian Highlands, which barely touches on the territories where Arabs roamed. --Vahag (talk) 14:31, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan Though the likelihood cannot be great, where does the dogma come from that Arabic borrowings in the 5th century are impossible? There were groups of Arabs not only at the southern border of the Byzantine Empire but already southeast Anatolia, albeit minorities. From Arabic criminal activities in the Byzantine Empire the Arabic word for the thief لِصّ (liṣṣ) has been collected, and I remind you of խաբեմ (xabem, “to dupe”) again. I note that there were even Yemenites in Syria; it’s where they collected the word فِرْسِك (firsik, “peach”), still peculiar to Yemen (and they brought it to Spain because the population of Al-Andalus was largely composed of emigrated Yemenite L2 speakers, which is the cause of many Andalusi peculiarities, but nothing of their languages alone is left). I think even Old South Arabian borrowings into Armenian were possible, though perhaps there is no trace, as even for Arabic we can see only few relations with the available material. Fay Freak (talk) 12:56, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- These are interesting ideas, but the formal problems are great. The Semitic p, t and ṯ should have given փ (pʻ), թ (tʻ) and թ (tʻ). -ոտի (-oti) has a collective meaning which I had not added. The vowels are not regular, as you said. Also, Arabic borrowings in the 5th century are impossible. For պորտ (port) I was thinking an Iranian mediation. --Vahag (talk) 10:52, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- Now փորոտի (pʻoroti, “entrails”) is a suspicious word to say the least. It looks like borrowed from the Arabic plural فُرُوث (furūṯ). You have -ոտի (-oti) as “forming adjectives”. Maybe փոր (pʻor, “abdomen, bowels”) is back-formed. Fay Freak (talk) 17:10, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak, thanks, I'll get back to this later. փոր (pʻor) and փորոտի (pʻoroti) also look similar to this family. --Vahag (talk) 17:03, 7 June 2019 (UTC)