Talk:ثلاثة
Latest comment: 4 years ago by ICanHelpYou in topic diptote forms?
diptote forms?
[edit]In this page and all the way up to عشرة, the forms that contain the ة are said to be diptotes for some reason if they are not in a compound number. From where was this information taken? These nouns are normal triptotes and the example sentence here is ungrammatical and has syntax errors.
If I'm wrong here, please show me a reliable source stating they're in fact diptotes in these position. Otherwise I will edit this page and the ones to the number 10. ICanHelpYou (talk) 12:09, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- @ICanHelpYou I agree with you. Those are not diptotes. He might be confusing it with numbers with the pattern مفعل and فعال like مثنى which are indeed diptotes. Fenakhay ❯❯❯ Talk 17:06, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- @FenakhayI'm very confused at how specific that note is and at the fact that it has been there for almost five years. Numbers are very common so I don't know how this was not questioned before.
- In any case, I'm 99% certain that these are regular triptotes and searching afterwards I couldn't find any mention for them being diptotes in some positions. I'm going to edit these pages now. ICanHelpYou (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Whoa there, it hasn't been much more than 7 hours since you posted the message. The note was added by User:Benwing here (I'll also ping User:Benwing2), and perhaps User:Fay Freak and User:Atitarev will have something to say. — Eru·tuon 20:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- @ICanHelpYou, Fenakhay, Erutuon, Benwing2: I have checked in Wolfdietrich Fischer’s Grammar of Classical Arabic. There is no mention of diptosis of numerals. The group of diptotic nouns and adjectives is well defined. By the way I find there (§ 152, § 119) that the adjective type فَعْلَان (faʕlān) is diptotic but such adjectives can also be triptotic and have ـَة (-a) in the feminine then as opposed to فَعْلَى (faʕlā). This is surely what the Saudi IP wanted to tell us at ظَمْآن (ẓamʔān), though it does not belong in the header. Aperiarcam put so before already in the table of عَطْشَان (ʕaṭšān). Fay Freak (talk) 00:41, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- @ICanHelpYou, Fenakhay, Erutuon, Fay Freak: See [1] p. 63 which says the numbers 3-10 are diptotes when used as pure numbers. This is also mentioned in [2]: "According to grammatical rules the numbers 3 - 10 are regarded as diptotes in abstract counting." Also here: [3] "...; diptotes are, of course, also the numerals when used without reference to nouns, and the distributive numerals." Benwing2 (talk) 01:17, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- And they (as your third sources references) derive all from one source, William Wright’s grammar, the text of which ultimately derives from Carl Paul Caspari’s grammar, found in the 5th (last) edition of 1887 on § 307 Nr. 2 e) p. 156. I wasn’t there in his time to get the authentic impressions but his treatment of diptotes appears chaotic to me; opposed to his six pages in Fischer’s actually comprehensive grammar the cases read much easier and almost fit onto one page. How am I even supposed to understand that the number is diptote “when the number stands alone”, how is it triptote ever then? For if it does not stand alone it is in the construct state, so it cannot be used triptotically at all then, tertium non datur? Fay Freak (talk) 01:53, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- I mean, in the determinate state and in the construct state (where there is never a question about diptosis) it is of course triptotic, but there is no room for distinction in the indeterminate state. “When the number stands alone” does not define any set of conditions well under which the numbers would be diptotic, for when wouldn’t the number stand alone if it be in the indeterminate state? The definition of the indeterminate state is “standing alone”. But at the same the numerals are quoted as triptotic. Fay Freak (talk) 02:04, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Fenakhay, Erutuon, Benwing2, Fay Freak: The sources you got only touch on this matter very briefly and all cite one book as far as I can tell and don't bother to give us a historic, authentic example of these terms being used. I've been skimming through my copies of المعجم المفصل في الإعراب and النحو الوافي and I even read through كتاب سيبويه just to make sure that I'm not missing anything. Non of these books even mentions the masculine form of 3-9 (ثلاثة, أربعة,...) Under diptotes and I've never heard anyone before claiming they're diptotes. In fact, it's not rare to find these words in those positions and they'll still be triptotes as in سلمت على ثلاثةٍ منهم and حسبتهم ثلاثةً لا غير.ICanHelpYou (talk) 02:53, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- I mean, in the determinate state and in the construct state (where there is never a question about diptosis) it is of course triptotic, but there is no room for distinction in the indeterminate state. “When the number stands alone” does not define any set of conditions well under which the numbers would be diptotic, for when wouldn’t the number stand alone if it be in the indeterminate state? The definition of the indeterminate state is “standing alone”. But at the same the numerals are quoted as triptotic. Fay Freak (talk) 02:04, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- And they (as your third sources references) derive all from one source, William Wright’s grammar, the text of which ultimately derives from Carl Paul Caspari’s grammar, found in the 5th (last) edition of 1887 on § 307 Nr. 2 e) p. 156. I wasn’t there in his time to get the authentic impressions but his treatment of diptotes appears chaotic to me; opposed to his six pages in Fischer’s actually comprehensive grammar the cases read much easier and almost fit onto one page. How am I even supposed to understand that the number is diptote “when the number stands alone”, how is it triptote ever then? For if it does not stand alone it is in the construct state, so it cannot be used triptotically at all then, tertium non datur? Fay Freak (talk) 01:53, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- @ICanHelpYou, Fenakhay, Erutuon, Fay Freak: See [1] p. 63 which says the numbers 3-10 are diptotes when used as pure numbers. This is also mentioned in [2]: "According to grammatical rules the numbers 3 - 10 are regarded as diptotes in abstract counting." Also here: [3] "...; diptotes are, of course, also the numerals when used without reference to nouns, and the distributive numerals." Benwing2 (talk) 01:17, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- In any case, I'm 99% certain that these are regular triptotes and searching afterwards I couldn't find any mention for them being diptotes in some positions. I'm going to edit these pages now. ICanHelpYou (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2019 (UTC)