Talk:لجلاس

RFD discussion: July–August 2020

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لجلاس

The correct term is جلاس (glās). فين أخاي (talk) 20:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Fenakhay, if you doubt a word exists, you should send it to RFV. The creator of this entry is @פֿינצטערניש, who probably has a source for it. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:01, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge They are not a Moroccan Arabic speaker. لجلاس is literally "la glace" and it is used when codeswitching. The nativised form is جلاس (glās) or غلاس (ḡlās). فين أخاي (talk) 22:08, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Fenakhay, Metaknowledge: I actually saw "laglas" (yes, with a "la") in various spellings in reference to the Moroccan Arabic in various sources. It may have been corrected now to match French without the French article "la" at the front.

Checking my Lonely Planet Moroccan Arabic Phrasebook... there you go, page 160: it has an entry "laglas", spelled in Arabic as لَكْلَاس (laklās) (without the diacritics, of course). (The sound [ɡ] can be rendered in different ways in Arabic and in Arabic dialects). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:41, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

You can find GBH using this search. The actual links are hidden behind a pay wall, but you can preview the results.

Keep and add alternative forms (spellings). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:48, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

If you look at those hits by Abdel-Massih, he actually has lagḷaṣ (so a short vowel with an emphatic environment). I think it is clear that this would pass RFV based on the phrasebook alone, but it is good to see that a native speaker linguist also considers a form fused with the French definite article to be genuine Moroccan Arabic. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 15:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: The notation lagḷaṣ is phonetic, the automated "laklās" (using the standard Arabic transliteration module) in my example is phonemic. Moroccan almost completely lacks long vowels, AFAIK but we haven't always been consistent in transliterating dialects, so "alif" is always short, so that the symbol "ā" can be always read short but of a different quality (not "a"). The emphatic consonant ("ḷ" standing for [ɫ]) also signifies how the vowel is pronounced - [ɑ], rather than [æ].

In Moroccan the spelling can be any of لجلاس (using "Egyptian" spelling where "ج" is pronounced as "g"), لگلاس, لݣلاس (the last two using specific Moroccan letters), لكلاس (using letter "k" to render "g", which is common), all of which would be hard to verify as this is a mostly spoken dialect but they are pronounced the same way - short and with a hard "g".

The deal with loanwords in all varieties of Arabic is roughly the following: short vowels are rendered with long vowels for clarity (Arabs can't guess what the vowels are in loanwords) but can be pronounced long or short depending on the speaker and the word. Sounds missing in standard Arabic - especially consonants "g", "p", "v", vowels "e" or "o" are rendered with other, similar letters but pronounced imitating foreign pronunciations when recognised as such or adopted (Arabised) or a mixture of both.

Yes, we need to add the "correct" or more modern terms as well, i.e. جلاس (glās) and alt spellings (Fenakhay also used a long "ā" even if it's short, it's just a convention.)--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:00, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

No further responses, so it looks like the entry is kept - @Fenakhay, Metaknowledge. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Code switching?

From Talk:factory

@Fenakhay: I see your point about لوزين (lūzīn)", thanks for fixing the spelling. As for "laglas", it's not only Lonely Planet phrasebook. It's in Advanced Moroccan Arabic (page 199), A Course in Moroccan Arabic (page 77) and An Introduction to Moroccan Arabic (page 75) all by Ernest T. Abdel-Massih. You can restart the RFD, if you think this is a clear case of code-switching.

@Benwing2, Fay Freak, عربي-٣١, Metaknowledge: FYI --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:18, 14 December 2020 (UTC)