Talk:हिंदी

Proposal for Consensus

this page should add ///# (historical) A dialect spoken in Delhi, now known as Hindustani/Urdu.//// info as it is already in "Hindi".

With regards. Rihantel (talk) 15:30, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Doesn’t make sense to just add that as a definition because Hindi has historically meant any Indian language, not exclusively Urdu or Hindustani. For example, the word Hindi has been used historically for languages as diverse as Gujarati and Telugu. But for the sake of completeness, however, we can add the definitions as they currently exist on the English Wiktionary article for Hindi. Foreverknowledge (talk) 15:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

you are right Hindi can be any language of India. But Urdu/Hindustani was called Lisan Al Hindi which means the language of the emperor! During era of emperor Shah Alam, Hindi partially replaced to Persian at 'Urdu aka Lal Qila' of Dehli/Delhi. In the memoirs of Shah Alam, he himself identified his tongue is Hindi ہندی and the script was nastaleeq.

After 1837 Hindi became only 'Urdu Zuban' as the the using of Persian went to an end. I hope you have understood the matter.

With regards. গহীনঅরণ্য (talk) 07:45, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Lisan Al Hindi doesn’t mean “language of the emperor”. It means “tongue of Indians” or “Indian tongue”, which again can refer to any language of India. Like I said, we can add the definitions as they currently exist on the English Wiktionary article for Hindi. Urdu would be among the languages covered by those definitions. Foreverknowledge (talk) 08:17, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Al Hindi الهندي means 'the Indian' (Singular). In Administrative analogy The emperor or Prime Minister himself is The Indian.

So Lisan Al Hindi was undoubtedly the tongue of the Emperor which today we call Urdu/Hindustani.

You can check this through this dictionary where Hindi is one of oldest name of Urdu

https://www.rekhtadictionary.com/meaning-of-hindi?lang=hi

With regards. গহীনঅরণ্য (talk) 05:13, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The modern form of Urdu began to emerge in the 18th century and the modern form of Hindi in the 19th century. The early (pre-18th century) history of Hindi and Urdu were the same. So the oldest names of Urdu would also be the oldest names of Hindi, or alternatively Hindustani. But as I’ve said, other languages were also called Hindi. So if wanting a more comprehensive definition of the term Hindi, we can use the definitions as they currently exist on the English Wiktionary article for Hindi. Foreverknowledge (talk) 16:27, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes any other languages were called Hindi. Why?

Any language which was spoken in the land of Hindiyyah هندية (India) was called Hindi.

It was the Emperor to ascertain which should be continued as Hindi? So Shah Alam decided the tongue which was based on Khadi boli will be as Hindi Zuban at 1780.

Modern Manak Hindi was the work of Xtian missionary at Fort william of Calcutta of 1800. After 1857 The works of Fort William became prime and The works of Hindoostane empire was made sidelined.

In 1900 the Hindi brand was finalised for another tongue as Hindi Vasha which was created by missionaries and historic Hindi was sidelined under the name of Urdu Zuban গহীনঅরণ্য (talk) 11:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Your information is not quite accurate. Shah Alam did not decree that only one language is to be called Hindi. The form of Khariboli in Perso-Arabic script used by his court circles (one of many languages called Hindi) and which had developed into its early modern standard form in the 18th century was given the name zabaan e urdu e mualla (language of the exalted court, which was in fact initially a term used for the Persian language before acquiring its current meaning) and eventually Urdu. The name Hindi included pre-standardized Hindustani (which was written in Perso-Arabic, Devanagari, and several regional scripts), early modern Urdu, modern Hindi (which developed in the 19th century), Braj, Avadhi, any many other languages of India. So it doesn’t make sense that you are arguing Urdu alone should be included in the definition. Foreverknowledge (talk) 23:33, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Shah Alam decreed about the form of language based on Khadi boli became Lisan Al Hindi which partially replaced the Persian at 'Urdu e Mualla aka exalted camp' at Dehli/Delhi around 1780.

When it became the official language it started to absorb persian vocabulary of administrative uses.

Otherwise, in definition even Sanskrit and Tamil, Telugu could be termed as Hindi.

One thing I need to mention that, the form of Hindi which was used by emperor, was written always in Nastaleeq script perhaps. Bcz, the Tulsi dwi vedi sab a contemporary of Samrat Akbar, himself mentioned his vasha was Vraj and Maithili. He did not ascertain his tongue as Hindi, Hindwi/Hindavi, Hindoostane.

Urdu itself means the language of administration.

Hindi Zuban/Hindi Vasha is a generalized term for any language of Hindiyyah/India. It could be any tongue like Awadhi, Vraj, bhojpuri, Bundelakhandi and so on....

Urdu should be alone in the definition of Lisan Al Hindi; a form of Indo Aryan Hindi based on Khadi Boli which was used for official purposes.

After 1857, India was ruled from London. The memories of an Indian Samrat was made to obsolete bcz, India was no longer ruling from India, but outside from India.

With regards. গহীনঅরণ্য (talk) 06:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

This Wiktionary article is about Hindi not about a special emphasis on the Lisan Al Hindi of Shah Alam. Foreverknowledge (talk) 07:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Yea, As Hindi is a generalize term. That is why Hindi page added that definition also. Lisan al Hindi aka Urdu/Hindustani. And still Adhunik Manak Hindi happens to be an official register of Lisan Al Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani.

With regards. গহীনঅরণ্য (talk) 07:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Urdu and Hindustani are not the same in the modern sense of the terms. So there is the question of whether Lisan al Hindi referred to what is known today as Urdu or to Hindustani. Modern Hindi and Urdu are both standardized registers of Hindustani. Are you okay with the definitions as used on the English wiktionary article on Hindi? Foreverknowledge (talk) 08:54, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I am now providing the definitions why Urdu/Hindustani is/was called Hindi

Hindi (Proper Noun); g=f

• Modern Standard Hindi, a Sanskritized register of language of Urdu/Hindustani written in Devanagree script.
• Lisan Al-Hindi; a Khadi boli based tongue that partially replaced the Persian at Urdu-e-Mua'lla aka Lal Qila in Dehli (Delhi) around 1780 CE written in Nastaleeq script, now commonly is known as Hindustani/Urdu.

Urdu and Hindustani are synonymous according 20th century document. https://hi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%80%E2%80%93%E0%A4%89%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%82_%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6 the cover page of 20th century work suggests that Urdu and Hindustani are synonymous.

with regards. গহীনঅরণ্য (talk) 06:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

The definitions of Hindi are what is listed on the English Wiktionary article on Hindi. Your information is outdated. Hindustani and Urdu are not synonymous. In the colonial era, some used Urdu and Hindustani as synonyms, but in the pre-colonial era and in the post colonial era, Hindustani refers to the Khariboli based lingua franca and not specifically to what is now known as Urdu. Foreverknowledge (talk) 07:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

In the Precolonial Era, Lisan Al Hindi/Hindustani/Urdu all were synonymous.

It was the John Gil christ who separated Hindi and Hindustani/Urdu in 1796.

In republic Indian era, the constitution of India specially emphasized Hindi be written in Deva nagree why?

Bcz, If Hindi (even highly Sanskritized Hindi) be written in Nastaleeq then it automatically becomes Urdu.

Examples of Sanskritized Urdu text of 1980s https://archive.org/details/KRI280YajurVedaUrduTranslationPartIAshuRamArya

In 1875, a newspaper Oudh Akhbar اودہ اخبار was published. I want to draw your attention at scripts and terms. It is in Hindustani. In otherwords Hindustani is todays Urdu!

Even if you don't agree upon me then at least you should add the term Lisan Al-Hindi prior to refer about Hindustani in Hindi and हिंदी page at Proper Noun part for mentioning the reasons earlier.

Lastly I want to ask with honour that, how much time does it take to form a consensus??

Thanks.

शुक्रिया دھنیہ واد🙏 গহীনঅরণ্য (talk) 04:31, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

In the pre-colonial era Hindustani and Urdu were not synonymous. Hindustani preceded modern Urdu and modern Hindi, which is why the latter two are considered versions/registers of Hindustani! The term Hindustani has been used for the Khariboli based lingua franca since at least the 17th century, while the Urdu language as we know it today didn’t even exist until the 18th century and the term Urdu itself only began to be used just as the British were taking control of most of India in the late 18th century. You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about language and script. This discussion is not about the term Hindustani so let’s focus on the term Hindi. You still have not responded to the question I have posed: Are you okay with the definitions as used on the English wiktionary article on Hindi?

We cannot reach a consensus with only 2 people commenting. So I am pinging other frequent contributors to Hindi wiktionary for their input. @AryamanA @Gotitbro

@Pulimaiyi Foreverknowledge (talk) 07:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

The wikt consensus is that we treat both Hindi and Urdu as lects/registers of a single language Hindustani/Hindi-Urdu and I see no reason to deviate from that even in definitions especially when sources do not support it.* For Urdu>Hindi/Urdu=Hindustani (which the insertion of the defintion would imply), is the same kind of secretarianism that we clearly avoid.

*Virtually no modern dictionary makes a historical equation of the terms Urdu and Hindustani (take your pick at DSAL or multiple en dicts here).

While I can see merit in adding here Hindustani as a historical term or Khariboli as a current one (seeing that multiple dicts do support this), I do not see the same for what is being debated above over the insertion "Lisan Al-Hindi"/"Urdu" supported neither by sources nor wikt precedence. Gotitbro (talk) 08:10, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind discussion! গহীনঅরণ্য (talk) 04:38, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your elaborations.

I am very much pleased at your replies. I do request to add the specific term of Proper noun that was synonymous to Hindustani at हिंदी, Hindi page if possible.

I have understood all of your points.

I am now resting my cases.

پرم ایشور سب کی دِلوں میں شانت دان کریں!

With regards. গহীনঅরণ্য (talk) 04:37, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

The infos I have added here from dictionary where term Hindi clearly simplifies Indian born Muslims. Abirtel (talk) 12:07, 24 December 2023 (UTC)