Talk:စစ်တုရင်

Strange pronunciation

@Angr, Wyang Hi. Do you know why the reading is so strange for this term? The Anglicised "sittuyin" is closer to the spelling. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:26, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

It was contaminated by စစ်ဗိုလ် (cacbuil, “military officer”), pronounced /sɪʔbò/, probably because the syllable-by-syllable analysis of this word did not make much sense: စစ် (cac, “war”) +‎ တု (tu., “to imitate”) +‎ ရင် (rang, “chest; if; to prepare”).

Burma Under British Rule--and Before:

... is Burmese chess, called Sitduyin, “mimic warfare,” or Sitpayin, “the Commander-in-Chief.”

A History of Chess: The Original 1913 Edition:

The Burmese name for their chess is sittuyin, pronounced in Arakanese sitturin. The game is also called colloquially sitbuyin (Arakanese, sitburin). In both these forms sit is the Burmese word for army, and is probably the direct Burmese descendant of the Skr. chaturanga. Sittuyin may be translated ‘representation of the army’. Sitbuyin is identical in form with the Burmese military term for ‘generalissimo’ ‘commander-in-chief’, but Mr. Colston and the Burmans whom I have consulted do not recognize any connexion between the two words.

Wyang (talk) 07:14, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, that's educational! --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:21, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

"Pali came before Sanskrit"

@Octahedron80 Are you sure? Sanskrit in Burmese etymologies is usually understood to be Vedic Sanskrit (ca. 2nd millennium BCE – 600 BCE), and Pali is only 5th – 1st century BCE. Wyang (talk) 07:09, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Pali and Sanskrit came to southeast Asia via Buddhism propagation. Pali is the first time (right after Buddha period) and Sanskrit is the second time (to China and Japan too). Then terms were firstly borrowing refered to Pali rather than Sanskrit. In the opposite, some terms that are directly borrowing Sanskrit may or may not from Pali. However we can use 'compare' keyword for both cases. --Octahedron80 (talk) 07:12, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

This was borrowed from Pali, and the Pali term is itself a descendant from Vedic Sanskrit; hence the etymology was structured to say "borrowed from Pali ..., from Sanskrit ...", rather than "borrowed from Sanskrit ...". Wyang (talk) 07:17, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Is Vedic Sanskrit same as Middle-age Sanskrit? Similar to many periods of Latin? --Octahedron80 (talk) 07:23, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Nevermind that. I already get the Sanskrit terms back. --Octahedron80 (talk) 07:33, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Vedic Sanskrit is not the same as the Classical Sanskrit which served as a literary language in Southeast Asia. I agree it is chronologically ambiguous and there is disagreement about whether Pali truly descends from Sanskrit, but this seems to be the current practice. It may be good to have a discussion on what the best etymological treatment of Pali/Sanskrit is in these cases. Wyang (talk) 07:53, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

caturaṅga

@Octahedron80 I understand that Pali in Burmese script has different rules but စတုရင္ဂ looks broken. Perhaps the source you're using has a Unicode issue or was created before the support for Burmese script was improved. Besides, it has been decided that Pali lemmas should default to Latin script, so the form caturaṅga should be the main entry. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:32, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Nope. It is not broken. I intend to add virama after ṅ (င) that makes g (ဂ) be subjoined. Pali doesn't use asat mark (unless virama is at the end of word which is very rare). See also caturaṅga alternate forms I just created. --Octahedron80 (talk) 08:35, 14 March 2017 (UTC)