Talk:駅
Latest comment: 6 years ago by Atitarev in topic RFV discussion: April 2017–March 2018
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The Chinese usage needs to be verified in durable sources. The image here was used to show that the Japanese character is used in Hong Kong. The superscript not only suggests the meaning "station" but also the reading "zaam6" (Cantonese).
Please refer to の (de) and previous discussions on the inclusion of the character as a Chinese term as opposed to Japanese.
--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:04, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- The Dictionary of Character Variants says that it is a variant of 驛 (referencing 角川漢和辞典). I'm not sure if this should be separate from the Hong Kong usage. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 01:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
- Maybe it should be. Modern HK usage seems to be a sort of "Japanese is cool" phemonemon independent of classical usage. —suzukaze (t・c) 01:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
- The entry has turned from a mere soft redirect (as a variant) with
{{zh-see|驛|v}}into a half entry with an image and usage notes. This already violates the previous agreement among Chinese editors that simplified and (some) variant entries are only soft redirects. If it's NOT a redirect but a full entry, it should have pronunciation sections with a PoS parameter, context and geographical labels and should be cited (that's why it's in RFV). Despite the links above, I think it may only be used for visual effects, not in a running Chinese text, and mostly limited to Hong Kong. If it fails RFV, it should probably remain just a soft redirect (minus the image and usage notes), I think. It would be hard to verify the pronunciation but if the usage in the Chinese context is attested, we could add some notes for both "jik6" and "zaam6". What do you all think? Also @Wyang, Tooironic. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:55, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
- The entry has turned from a mere soft redirect (as a variant) with
- Maybe it should be. Modern HK usage seems to be a sort of "Japanese is cool" phemonemon independent of classical usage. —suzukaze (t・c) 01:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
- I don't really have any a strong opinion on this. Soft-redirects to both 驛 and 站 seem like a good solution, with usage notes to explain its uses. Wyang (talk) 11:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
- I think there are two distinct 駅s to consider:
- Variant of 驛 (as described in the Dictionary of Character Variants). This may not pass RFV because it's citing a Chinese-Japanese dictionary, which really implies that it's Japanese.
- 駅 as used in Hong Kong. From what I've watched and read, this can be read variously as 驛 (jik6, the "etymologically correct" way), 站 (zaam6, semantic reading), 尺 (cek3, youbian dubian), 澤 (zaak6, youbian dubian), and 馬尺 (maa5 cek3, reading the components); the first two are probably most common. It's not quite a replacement of the ancient 驛, nor is it really 站. This could most likely pass RFV since the locations (usually stores/shopping centres) have been mentioned in the news before. It's also used in the song that Suzukaze-c mentioned. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 15:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
- I think there are two distinct 駅s to consider:
- Greetings. I am not particularly sure how Wiktionary defines the term variant character (異體字), but I was taught by my teachers that a variant character is a character written in a non-standard form but has the same meaning and pronunciation with its original form (正體字). The statement "A is a variant character of B" and its converse statement "B is a variant character of A" are not equivalent statements as one character has to be the true form and the other, a variant form. Can "駅" be attested as being a variant form of both “站" and "驛", ie. having the same meaning and pronunciation as that of "站" and "驛"? It has come to my attention that 東角駅 is not only the title of a song, but also the name of a mall in Hong Kong while 都會駅與城中駅 is a residential complex. I am unsure but in my opinion, "東角駅 站" refers to a station next to 東角駅 mall. Perhaps 駅 is just a character used for names of places. To the best of my knowledge, the Mandarin pronunciation yì and Cantonese pronunciation jik6 was provided by the Unicode Consortium in Unihan 8.0. Is this adequate enough for 駅 to be classified as a variant character of 驛? Note that Unihan provides Mandarin and Cantonese readings for shinjitai characters. Kevinup (talk) 20:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Kevinup, KevinUp: You're pretty much on the same track as what we generally consider to be a variant. Since Wiktionary is aiming to be descriptive, there is no actual "orthodox" character, but the "most common" character used in traditional Chinese, which usually (but not always) overlaps with the Taiwanese standard. I don't really think 駅 in the Hong Kong context is actually equivalent to 站 or 驛. It's kind of special and should have its own full entry.
- While encoding systems (like Unicode and HKSCS) are useful for determining whether a character is used in a particular language, it is not strong evidence on Wiktionary; we need to have durably-archived attestation. In fact, the Unihan database is riddled with errors, especially with definitions. If we don't find any use of 駅 as an equivalent to 站 or 驛, I don't think we can call it a variant of either character. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 04:05, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Atitarev, Suzukaze-c: I've cleaned up the entry to include my findings so far. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 15:56, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Thanks and sorry for the delay in answering. Verified. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:53, 4 March 2018 (UTC)