Talk:鶴

OJP tadu, JA tazu

@Poketalker --

I cannot recall where I ran across つ, and I can't find it now, so thank you for clearing that out.

Separately, regarding the etym for the たづ reading, I don't have a source for that and had intended that to read as more speculative.

Some background:

• Here's a breakdown of all the instances I can find in the MYS where 鶴 is given the reading たづ in the kana rendering, and is spelled out phonetically in the poem text.

Man'yōgana	Phonetics	Poem link
多頭	/tadu/	MYS 3 - 324
		MYS 4 - 509
		MYS 6 - 919
		MYS 6 - 961
		MYS 6 - 1000
		MYS 6 - 1030
		MYS 10 - 2138
		MYS 11 - 2490
		MYS 11 - 2768
		MYS 11 - 4398
多豆	Ambiguous: /tadu/ or /tatu/	MYS 6 - 1160
		MYS 14 - 3522
		MYS 14 - 3523
		MYS 15 - 3595
		MYS 15 - 3598
		MYS 15 - 3627
		MYS 15 - 3642
		MYS 15 - 3654
		MYS 18 - 4034
		MYS 18 - 4116
多津	/tatu/	MYS 1 - 71
多都		MYS 15 - 3626

The instances of 多津 and 多都 are both rendered as たづ in the UVA copy linked above. However, in the man'yōgana table at w:Man'yōgana, both 津 and 都 are given the single unambiguous reading tu, suggesting that the unvoiced /tatu/ reading might have been used.

• In addition, we know from OJP phonology that voiced obstruents indicate contraction of an intervening nasal, often an absorbed の between two nouns, as described in brief at w:Old_Japanese#Pre-Old_Japanese_2. This points to tadu being the result of a compound of ta + nasal + tu → tantu → tadu.
• From the phonology, and the MYS spellings, one possible inference is that tatu may represent a different kind of compounding construction, wherein the two hypothetical nouns ta and tu were joined without an intervening nasal.

The etym text for the たづ / たず reading is intended to distill this into a nutshell speculative suggestion for the derivation. I'll have a poke in a moment to reword; please reword further if it still sounds too authoritative. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:32, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

@Eirikr: thanks for the information. By the way, you made a mistake on the man'yōgana 多頭 mentioned in the 2490th poem, which is actually part of the adjective たづたづし (tadutadusi). The “crane” sense is actually written as 鶴 itself:

天雲爾翼打附而飛鶴乃多頭多頭思鴨君不座者

amakumo ni pane utituke₂te to₂bu tadu no₂ tadutadusi ka mo ki₁mi₁ imasaneba

(please add an English translation of this usage example)

～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 10:07, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the catch! Much of my analysis is based on regexes of HTML files, and it's easy to go cross-eyed from looking at the markup. (◑__◐) Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:00, 14 October 2019 (UTC)