Talk:상어
Latest comment: 9 years ago by Atitarev in topic Etymology note
Etymology note[edit]
@TAKASUGI Shinji I wonder if it's really necessary. How else can the word be pronounced? What's the difference with, say, 영어 (yeong'eo) where ㅇ also belongs to the previous syllable/morpheme? Pls correct me if I'm wrong. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:09, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think it is necessary - the Chinese Wiktionary has a similar note as well. The readings are non-Sino-Korean. Wyang (talk) 00:37, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't understand. Aren't all occurrences of "ng + vowel" pronounced that way? The sound /ŋ/ can't be rendered graphically in the syllable onset, anyway, since jamo ㅇ is silent at the beginning of a syllable. Does 영어 (yeong'eo) also need it? There's IPA, which seems sufficient, that's why I removed it. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:52, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am talking about etymology. 魚 was originally pronounced with the initial /ŋ/ in Korean, and some compounds still have it. 상어 (sang'eo), 잉어 (ing'eo), and 붕어 (bung'eo) are rather 사 (sa, 沙) + ㅇ어 (ng-eo), 이 (i, 鯉) + ㅇ어 (ng-eo), and 부 (bu, 鮒) + ㅇ어 (ng-eo) respectively. 영어 (yeong'eo) has a similar pronunciation but it is clearly 영 + 어, not 여 + ㅇ어. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:55, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- I understand why the comment was there now, thanks, but in the modern Korean, it doesn't seem to matter, since the second syllable in both 상어 and 영어 are pronounced the same way, regardless of etymology. At 어 there's a note: "魚: fish. Sometimes -ㅇ어 (-ngeo) as in 잉어, 붕어, 상어 and 숭어." The common thing with the examples is that previous syllables all end in ㅇ, so /ŋ/ is just used on the next syllable. I wonder, are there still words with initial /ŋ/ where the previous syllable DOESN'T END in ㅇ?--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:07, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- The modern spelling and pronunciation are irregular - sa-eo would be the regular outcome. It is not predictable from the Hanja, and the word is in this sense different from other Sino-Korean words. Sang-eo was produced via the processes /sa.ŋʌ/ > /saŋ.ŋʌ/ (irregular epenthesis) > /saŋ.ʌ/ (regular dropping of syllable-initial /ŋ/). This is similar to the case of 잽싸다 (jaepssada) and English apron#Etymology. Wyang (talk) 02:41, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm happy now. Thank you both. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:54, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- The modern spelling and pronunciation are irregular - sa-eo would be the regular outcome. It is not predictable from the Hanja, and the word is in this sense different from other Sino-Korean words. Sang-eo was produced via the processes /sa.ŋʌ/ > /saŋ.ŋʌ/ (irregular epenthesis) > /saŋ.ʌ/ (regular dropping of syllable-initial /ŋ/). This is similar to the case of 잽싸다 (jaepssada) and English apron#Etymology. Wyang (talk) 02:41, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- I understand why the comment was there now, thanks, but in the modern Korean, it doesn't seem to matter, since the second syllable in both 상어 and 영어 are pronounced the same way, regardless of etymology. At 어 there's a note: "魚: fish. Sometimes -ㅇ어 (-ngeo) as in 잉어, 붕어, 상어 and 숭어." The common thing with the examples is that previous syllables all end in ㅇ, so /ŋ/ is just used on the next syllable. I wonder, are there still words with initial /ŋ/ where the previous syllable DOESN'T END in ㅇ?--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:07, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am talking about etymology. 魚 was originally pronounced with the initial /ŋ/ in Korean, and some compounds still have it. 상어 (sang'eo), 잉어 (ing'eo), and 붕어 (bung'eo) are rather 사 (sa, 沙) + ㅇ어 (ng-eo), 이 (i, 鯉) + ㅇ어 (ng-eo), and 부 (bu, 鮒) + ㅇ어 (ng-eo) respectively. 영어 (yeong'eo) has a similar pronunciation but it is clearly 영 + 어, not 여 + ㅇ어. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:55, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't understand. Aren't all occurrences of "ng + vowel" pronounced that way? The sound /ŋ/ can't be rendered graphically in the syllable onset, anyway, since jamo ㅇ is silent at the beginning of a syllable. Does 영어 (yeong'eo) also need it? There's IPA, which seems sufficient, that's why I removed it. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:52, 21 August 2014 (UTC)