Talk:Bart

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Rfv-sense. (British) a baronet. Note this is Bart, not bart. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, Bart. (with a dot) is easily cited: do a b.g.c. search of your favorite baronet, plus "bart", restricting your search to full-view books, and you'll find plenty of examples. Capitalized seems to be more common than lowercase. Without the dot is much harder to cite (which surprises me; I had thought that Britons tended not to put a dot after abbreviations that end with the last letter of the word they abbreviate), but I think we have a tradition of excluding the final dot, anyway. —_TALK 17:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Bart(.) does sometimes appear in uppercase when not part of a title; see, e.g., google books:"walter scott" "a bart". It also appears in lowercase (same search).​—msh210℠ 16:31, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Shall we pass it with the citations Ruakh and msh210 have seen with and without the dot, and according to Ruakh's comment that we usually drop dots? - -sche (discuss) 02:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Vowel length before -r + alveolar

Just for the record: In Low German, and hence in northern standard German, most instances of open vowels ar, er, or, ör + alveolar were lengthened. The Siebs/Duden standard is a strange mixture form (as with coda g). As far as I can see, it prescribes a short vowel mostly, but a long one in the following cases: 1.) reguarly in -erd- (e.g. Erde), 2.) additionally in Art, Bart, Erz, Harz, Quarz, Schwert, Wert, zart. God knows why. And then in Barsch to distinguish it from barsch. 90.186.170.193 07:46, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

So one thing is that lengthening of o, ö was not accepted, only that of a, e and normally only before rd, rt. Then it was also restricted to monosyllabic stems except with erd (Erde, Herde, werden). All further exceptions such as hart are also short in Low German, though I don't know what the rule is for that (if any). The additionally lengthened Barsch, Erz, Harz serve to distinguish them from barsch, erz- and Harz (the mountain range). Then there's Quarz, perhaps because it rhymes with Harz. — Doesn't make very much sense to me yet, but perhaps I'm missing something. 90.186.170.193 09:41, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

So has the Duden clique even had the power to enforce a certain pronunciation? Because I think all these examples have short vowels, and I am surprised that words like Art, Bart etc. are given with long vowels, and especially werden, rah. We may merge /ɛ/ and /e/ qualities but they likely do not become long from that nor is the merge the majority. I never heard of such a standard and always thought the vowels are short, though now it may seem to me that TV speakers have pronounced the vowels longer than we usually do in the parlance of Eastern Westphalia. Fay Freak (talk) 10:40, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I really can't say. For me personally coda /aːr/, /eːr/, /øːr/, /oːr/ are really entirely merged with coda /ar/, /ɛr/, /œr/, /ɔr/, so I have no "native" understanding of this. I'm sure it wasn't entirely arbitrary. Siebs didn't make up stuff. He just took the liberty to choose whatever he found preferable among the common pronunciations in his day. What I'm trying to do is understand the reasoning behind the prescription, but it seems difficult :) 90.186.170.193 20:37, 22 December 2020 (UTC)