Talk:Borduria

Real place too

Wikipedia:Borduria, Tirap district Drapetomanic (talk) 11:12, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Added. Thanks. -- Tukp (talk) 04:34, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

RFV discussion: November 2022–February 2023

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Borduria

WT:FICTION and such applies — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 13:05, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done Quotations and references added. -- Tukp (talk) 03:34, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

NOT DONE. Citations are not independent of reference to the fictional universe (and I don't see how such cites could ever be found, given the definition). Equinox ◑ 03:38, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Per the current definition, Borduria is not a "city" but a "country". Like Absurdistan or Atlantis. See Category:en:Fictional locations. So please on hold. This word is widespread. -- Tukp (talk) 05:43, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

@Tukp: You might want to review our criteria for inclusion, especially the section that deals with terms from fictional universes. A term from a fictional world can only be included if it is used in contexts not directly referencing said fictional world.

Examples:

• A quotation from the entry Hogwarts: "The BIS remains a global club for central bankers, a Hogwarts for financial wizards." This is using the term Hogwarts in a real-world context not directly referencing Harry Potter, so this counts as valid attestation. ✅
• A quotation you added to Syldavia: "Tintin and his loyal hound Snowy find themselves trying to thwart a plot by spies to overthrow the king of Syldavia, a fictional Balkan land." This is just the description of the plot of a fictional work, so this doesn't count for attestation. ❌

98.170.164.88 07:26, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Whatever the outcome of this RFV, this is clear evidence of WT:FICTION's gross violation of "all words in all languages". I have no idea why a single word (not phrase) that is good for Wikipedia should not be also good for Wiktionary as long as attested and treated in a proper dictionary way. Both are wikis of Wikimedia Foundation. Why is one of them so much more restrictive in its inclusion? French Wiktionary links the etymology to bordure. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:48, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for the guidance. Three more quotations added, from economics books. The concept Borduria / Syldavia is used outside of the fictional Tintin universe. Please tell me if anything else should be done. I will be happy to improve. -- Tukp (talk) 09:17, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Haven't followed up all of them but in the first and second quotations it's a name used in fictional case studies made up by the authors of those law monographs and doesn't pertain to the sense at the entry. I suppose it's possible that there is a "generic fictional country" sense that can be extracted from this usage. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 11:02, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

It's looking more promising now that the second sense has been added. 98.170.164.88 04:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Borduria and Syldavia are generic names in the popular culture, like David and Goliath, or Romeo and Juliet. -- Tukp (talk) 04:13, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Note that the first "imaginary country" sense is being challenged here, not the "generic country" one (which was added since this RFV was opened). The second sense might be okay. Equinox ◑ 12:28, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

References moved. (fiction) added. Wording improved. Thanks. -- Tukp (talk) 02:42, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Borduria is also a (real) village in India. Encyclopaedia Of North-East India, and also on Google Map. -- Tukp (talk) 05:30, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks?? We're not debating whether it's a word. We're debating whether some Tintin comic fiction (that you added) should be included. Please stay on topic. Equinox ◑ 05:44, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Already thanked. Chronologically, the RFV precedes this new definition dating from today. Thus the template is also concerning this section, currently. If the meaning is not debated, then perhaps {{rfv-sense}} could be more appropriate, yet. -- Tukp (talk) 07:06, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

None of the quotes for sense 1 still support it, as per WT:FICTION. The IP above pointed it out; these uses are not independent of the fictional universe. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 09:00, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done 3 more quotes independent of the fictional universe. Thanks. -- Tukp (talk) 08:52, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

At least the first two are probably better classified as sense 2—well, that and the second one is in Spanish, not English. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 19:42, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Fixed Quote in Spanish moved to the related section of the page, thanks. In English, three meanings exist for Borduria. Concerning the first two quotes in English related to sense 1, they both associate Borduria to Ruritania:

1. "But the name of Grand Fenwick doesn't occur in any history book, or show up in any atlas, unless it also maps Ruritania, Syldavia, Borduria, Oz or even Shangri-La."
2. "Graustark, Ruritania, Borduria, Syldavia and a score of imaginary kingdoms, usurped by tyrants [...]"

Definition of Ruritania in Collins dictionary. Is the meaning of Ruritania in these sentences referring to 1. "an imaginary kingdom of central Europe: setting of several novels by English novelist Anthony Hope" or to 2. "any setting of adventure, romance, and intrigue"? Imaginary kingdom in my opinion, because of the "history book" in quote 1 and the "imaginary kingdoms" in quote 2. In that case, the same meaning should be interpreted from "Borduria", i.e. the first definition. A clear reference to the literature is occurring from these examples, while sense 2 is not connecting to any book or author. -- Tukp (talk) 06:07, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Looks  cited. Ioaxxere (talk) 02:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

RFV Passed. Ioaxxere (talk) 18:51, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

INCORRECT ILLEGITIMATE CLOSURE; see the other fictional country above. Equinox ◑ 04:10, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

The second sense "A generic name of a fictional country" is definitely passing. The first (original) sense might be deleted, but there is precedent for keeping it in this kind of situation (like in Talk:Star Wars) Ioaxxere (talk) 04:31, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Ioaxxere, at least about the second sense. The first sense, without figurative quotations, could and probably should be folded into the etymology, but I think there are some similar cases where that has not been done. 70.172.194.25 04:41, 23 February 2023 (UTC)