Talk:Montague

RFV discussion: September 2020–November 2021

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Montague

Sense: "A member of Romeo's family in William Shakespeare's Romeo & Juliet." Ultimateria (talk) 16:44, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Moved from RFD to RFV to see if it passes WT:FICTION. Facts707 (talk) 14:59, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Clearly, the definition that explicitly refers to Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet does not meet WT:FICTION, but I have cited the figurative sense. Kiwima (talk) 21:14, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 19:56, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

RFD discussion: September 2020–November 2021

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Montague

Sense: "A member of Romeo's family in William Shakespeare's Romeo & Juliet." Ultimateria (talk) 16:44, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Moved to RFV from RFD to see if it passes WT:FICTION. Facts707 (talk) 15:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Desdemona

Sense: "A character in Shakespeare's play The Tragedy of Othello, the Moor of Venice, the wife of Othello." Ultimateria (talk) 16:46, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Moved to RFV from RFD to see if it passes WT:FICTION. Facts707 (talk) 15:04, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Titania

Sense: "Character in Shakespeare's play A Midsummer-Night's Dream, the queen of the fairies." Ultimateria (talk) 16:51, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Keep all in RFD, send to RFV to see if they meet WT:FICTION. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:03, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Delete all proper nouns. If they have generic noun senses ("oh he's such a Titania!") then fine. But we should not have senses for characters in fiction. Equinox ◑ 10:23, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

We ought not to have senses for characters in fiction? Doesn't that conflict with what you were saying about Scheherazade? Or are we distinguishing (which would be fair enough if we were, but I want to know for the record) between folkloric characters, and characters merely from literature alone? Tharthan (talk) 01:08, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Tharthan: I am distinguishing. I chose not to nominate Oberon for this reason. Ultimateria (talk) 20:56, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Tharthan, IMO we should have extremely stringent inclusion standards for entries for fictional-char-as-fictional-char. Personally I think Shezzy should scrape through as she serves a well-known narrative role (that of the doomed storyteller) in a way that again IMO Titania probably doesn't. Of course YMMV. Equinox ◑ 21:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

• Keep Romeo and Shylock, although I would not object to converting the Proper noun "sense" for Romeo into an etymology for the common noun, and equally would not object to converting the Proper noun "sense" for Shylock into an etymology for a missing common noun sense that needs to be written. bd2412 T 19:32, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Note: we do have shylock, but I believe it is also used in the same sense with capitalization. bd2412 T 20:50, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
    • OK added, but which sense? Presumably the first? DAVilla 02:24, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
      • Yes. It's a bit roundabout, but Shylock, the character, is the etymology for Shylock, the spelling variation of shylock. Also, in retrospect, I am wondering if Shakespeare actually coined the name "Romeo", or if it was a name already in use that he merely applied to the character. bd2412 T 06:54, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
      • Question answered. Romeo is a genuine given name. bd2412 T 06:57, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

• Keep all ;-) -- Dentonius (my politics | talk) 18:15, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
• Keep all in RfD and send to RfV, as per Mx. Granger. Khemehekis (talk) 22:21, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
• Keep Romeo and Shylock per bd2412, and delete or keep the others per Equinox's instructions. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 11:01, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Delete all proper nouns per WT:FICTION. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 00:27, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

• WT:FICTION does not require the deletion of proper nouns, it specifies a heightened minimum standard of citation for their inclusion. bd2412 T 02:31, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

  My understanding of WT:FICTION is that character names in fiction should be included in the main namespace only if they are used out of context in an attributive sense. But an attributive sense should not be listed as a proper noun, but as a noun, since that is how the word is used. I was meaning to basically echo Equinox's first comment in this section. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 15:46, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

  Do you mean to say that if three citations of an attributive sense of Titania can be found, then WT:FICTION permits two definitions at Titania, one being a proper noun and the other a common noun? - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 15:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

• @ExcarnateSojourner: Yes, that is exactly what it means, as with Romeo, which is both historically merely a name, and pursuant to usage by Shakespeare in fiction, a common noun denoting a male romantic interest. bd2412 T 07:30, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

  @BD2412: Ah, I was misinterpreting it. I've retracted my verdict. Thank you for explaining. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 03:54, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Moved to RFV. I note that the asteroid is named after the Shakespearian character, but that doesn't help this sense pass WT:CFI. Facts707 (talk) 13:52, 8 November 2021 (UTC)