Talk:Spitzel
Latest comment: 7 months ago by Caoimhin ceallach in topic RFV discussion: May 2021–October 2023
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German. Tagged by 2003:DE:3724:7F29:7877:20A0:1DE0:122E on 26 April, not listed:
- “also not in de.wt, Duden, DWDS, Adelung”
J3133 (talk) 12:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- Only noticing now. This IP is annoying. Shall he search
"Spitzel" Hund, also"Spitzl" Hund, restricting for example to pre-1920, and add the quotes himself. This is of obvious, clearly widespread use in the Austrian and Austro-Hungarian Empire, as one could guess from the ending, which is the reason why the descendants also have this meaning, but not included in Duden and Adelung because of their recentist and bundedeutsch bias. Fay Freak (talk) 12:35, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
- There are a few results of dogs called Spitzel (e.g. [1], [2]; with "Ein Spitzel"; [3], having plural "die Spitzeln").
- However, it's also an issue of gender which for the dog sense is still unattesed. This contradiction is obvious:
- Entry: "German ... Spitzel m ... diminutive of Spitz".
- wp: "In der deutschen Standardsprache sind Diminutive stets sächlich" = "In the German standard language diminutives are always neuter" or "In Standard High German diminutives are always neuter".
- -el has different suffixes/meanings: diminutive or appurtenance. — This unsigned comment was added by 2003:DE:3728:BF93:7011:4B0B:BFD3:D166 (talk) at 17:21, 1 June 2021 (UTC).
- From my Sprachgefühl, one has just taken over the gender from Hund (the same mental process by which English loanwords in German acquire gender). There is also influence from the tool suffix -el, since the dog is a tool. However you do find the neuter: »das Mirzel ist eifersüchtig auf das Spitzel ihres Mannes«. But after all, it is the same word. It has not changed gender while acquiring the meaning of a spy but rather before (than after, which would mean you can find the meaning of a spy as neuter). (The Slavic descendants do not help since they are m by Illič-Svityč's law.) Fay Freak (talk) 18:14, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- I think this meaning should be removed. I've never heard of a diminutive taking over the gender of its base. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 22:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Caoimhin ceallach: I don’t see why the meaning should be removed. We seem to have found out / exemplified already that it could be both masculine and neuter, for which ever reason, so what are we doing here? The etymological relations though seem erroneous. I think German Spitz m is back-formed from either Spitzel or Spitzhund, additionally reinforced from English (which would also be borrowed as a masculine due to Hund), and these both from the adjective spitz. Fay Freak (talk) 22:56, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Right, now I see. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 23:53, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Caoimhin ceallach: I don’t see why the meaning should be removed. We seem to have found out / exemplified already that it could be both masculine and neuter, for which ever reason, so what are we doing here? The etymological relations though seem erroneous. I think German Spitz m is back-formed from either Spitzel or Spitzhund, additionally reinforced from English (which would also be borrowed as a masculine due to Hund), and these both from the adjective spitz. Fay Freak (talk) 22:56, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think this meaning should be removed. I've never heard of a diminutive taking over the gender of its base. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 22:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- From my Sprachgefühl, one has just taken over the gender from Hund (the same mental process by which English loanwords in German acquire gender). There is also influence from the tool suffix -el, since the dog is a tool. However you do find the neuter: »das Mirzel ist eifersüchtig auf das Spitzel ihres Mannes«. But after all, it is the same word. It has not changed gender while acquiring the meaning of a spy but rather before (than after, which would mean you can find the meaning of a spy as neuter). (The Slavic descendants do not help since they are m by Illič-Svityč's law.) Fay Freak (talk) 18:14, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
RFV-passed —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 00:37, 19 October 2023 (UTC)