Talk:bunduki
Latest comment: 4 years ago by Metaknowledge
I had been confused by where & when the sense "gun" arose; I find it in Hayyim (which is why I have the Swahili from Persian rather than straight from Arabic) but not in Steingass. @Fay Freak, do you have any insight? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:45, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge: None of those means gun, but بُنْدُق (bunduq) means or meant a kind of small projectile or cartridge thereof. بُنْدُقِيَّة (bunduqiyya) means gun in Standard Arabic (in dialects we have some other words like مُكْحُلَة (mukḥula)). Don’t know why the Swahili wouldn’t be rather from بُنْدُقِيَّة (bunduqiyya). The terms come, like many weapon terms, from the Mamluk Empire. Since the Ottomans where superior in their weapons, as history shows (see also my conversation with Allahverdi with the conclusion that the Azerbaijanis were behind and borrowed weapon terms from Turkish), and early occurrences likewise refer to the Ottomans employing بُنْدُق (bunduq), or rather بُنْدُق الرَصَاص (bunduq ar-raṣāṣ), it might be in Arabic a semantic loan from Old Anatolian Turkish, but this probably remains speculative; the Mamālīk also invented stuff. See also David Ayalon’s 1956 book Gunpowder and firearms in the Mamluk kingdom about Mamlūk weaponry. (If I made a template for him, I would make one for his lifework, like T:R:ar:Agius, but half is in Hebrew.) Fay Freak (talk) 21:25, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak, you say that "[n]one of those means gun" and removed the Persian from the entry, but Hayyim defines بندق as "A musket." Moreover, that would explain the same semantic transfer in Hindustani, which obviously got the word itself via Persian. This would be highly irregular if it were from بُنْدُقِيَّة (bunduqiyya), which should produce *bundukia. So what is your reasoning for removing it? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:06, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge: I don’t know what I referred to with “those”, but I don’t see even in Dehkhoda the meaning “gun”. If ever present it is probably peripheral. For the Hindustani term बंदूक़ (bandūq) / بندوق, and Gujarati બંદૂક (bandūk), one must ask why the form is bandūq and not bunduq, furthermore it is feminine for some reason. This suggest some derivation we have yet to discern. I have left the most certain part, that ultimately all such forms, may it by mediator language and derivation, are from Arabic بُنْدُق (bunduq). How was arms trade in the East African coast anyway? Has Iran really been participating amongst all the Arabs? Fay Freak (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well the length is somewhat likely because of end stress in Persian. Fay Freak (talk) 23:31, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: In looking around, I see multiple sources claiming an Arabic بُنْدُق (bunduq) meaning "guns" as a collective, with بُنْدُقِيَّة (bunduqiyya) being construed as its singular. Is it possible we are merely missing a (presumably obsolete) sense in the Arabic entry that would obviate any need for an intermediate? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:40, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge Dehkhoda gives a بندوق (bandūq, bundūq) meaning rifle. But I don’t find indications that بندق means = تفنگ , they hardly even appear on the same page. I see indeed, like you, Arabic بُنْدُق (bunduq) meaning allegedly guns according to Spoken Arabic of Egypt 1901. بُنْدُقَة (bunduʾa) is even still given with the meaning “rifle” in Hinds/Badawi (1986), plural بَانَادِق (banādiʿ) (this is likewise the plural of بُنْدُقِيَّة (bunduqiyya)), and Hinds/Badawi give بُنْدُقَة (bunduʾa) the interesting label “rural”, also listing بُنْدُقِيَّة (bunduʾiyya). Some web results may confirm this. The Modern Egyptian Arabic dictionary seems to not know بُنْدُقَة (bunduʾa, “rifle”) in favor of -īya. This brings us to the underdocumented Omani and Yemeni Arabic (which latter is split in three languages on Wiktionary, which nobody will sort out, especially since they are busy defeating the KSA). Fay Freak (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge Well in Yemen بُنْدُق (bunduq), also بُنْدُوق (bundūq), totally means or meant rifle, arquebus etc., according to the referenced Piamenta, Moshe (1991) Dictionary of Post-Classical Yemeni Arabic, volume 2, Leiden: Brill, →ISBN, page 41. The Persian and Indian بندوق must also be from such a dialectal form. Fay Freak (talk) 00:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: Helpfully confirmed here in a book on Shehri; the list of borrowings merely says "Arabic", but it is clearly not MSA, considering words like بنديرة (bandēra, “flag”). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:55, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- You mean because it is from an Omani MSA language? Surely that does confirm, since this is an areal term. I have also seen a borrowing in Omani Mehri in a book they imply. Absurd situation that Modern South Arabian is more accessible than Omani Arabic. Fay Freak (talk) 01:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- I meant Modern Standard Arabic, sorry. I agree about the absurdity — there is of course the book by Reinhardt which covers the exact dialect I'm interested in (Omani Arabic as spoken on Zanzibar), but it has no wordlist and I read German slowly. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:33, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- You mean because it is from an Omani MSA language? Surely that does confirm, since this is an areal term. I have also seen a borrowing in Omani Mehri in a book they imply. Absurd situation that Modern South Arabian is more accessible than Omani Arabic. Fay Freak (talk) 01:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: Helpfully confirmed here in a book on Shehri; the list of borrowings merely says "Arabic", but it is clearly not MSA, considering words like بنديرة (bandēra, “flag”). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:55, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge Well in Yemen بُنْدُق (bunduq), also بُنْدُوق (bundūq), totally means or meant rifle, arquebus etc., according to the referenced Piamenta, Moshe (1991) Dictionary of Post-Classical Yemeni Arabic, volume 2, Leiden: Brill, →ISBN, page 41. The Persian and Indian بندوق must also be from such a dialectal form. Fay Freak (talk) 00:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge Dehkhoda gives a بندوق (bandūq, bundūq) meaning rifle. But I don’t find indications that بندق means = تفنگ , they hardly even appear on the same page. I see indeed, like you, Arabic بُنْدُق (bunduq) meaning allegedly guns according to Spoken Arabic of Egypt 1901. بُنْدُقَة (bunduʾa) is even still given with the meaning “rifle” in Hinds/Badawi (1986), plural بَانَادِق (banādiʿ) (this is likewise the plural of بُنْدُقِيَّة (bunduqiyya)), and Hinds/Badawi give بُنْدُقَة (bunduʾa) the interesting label “rural”, also listing بُنْدُقِيَّة (bunduʾiyya). Some web results may confirm this. The Modern Egyptian Arabic dictionary seems to not know بُنْدُقَة (bunduʾa, “rifle”) in favor of -īya. This brings us to the underdocumented Omani and Yemeni Arabic (which latter is split in three languages on Wiktionary, which nobody will sort out, especially since they are busy defeating the KSA). Fay Freak (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: In looking around, I see multiple sources claiming an Arabic بُنْدُق (bunduq) meaning "guns" as a collective, with بُنْدُقِيَّة (bunduqiyya) being construed as its singular. Is it possible we are merely missing a (presumably obsolete) sense in the Arabic entry that would obviate any need for an intermediate? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:40, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well the length is somewhat likely because of end stress in Persian. Fay Freak (talk) 23:31, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge: I don’t know what I referred to with “those”, but I don’t see even in Dehkhoda the meaning “gun”. If ever present it is probably peripheral. For the Hindustani term बंदूक़ (bandūq) / بندوق, and Gujarati બંદૂક (bandūk), one must ask why the form is bandūq and not bunduq, furthermore it is feminine for some reason. This suggest some derivation we have yet to discern. I have left the most certain part, that ultimately all such forms, may it by mediator language and derivation, are from Arabic بُنْدُق (bunduq). How was arms trade in the East African coast anyway? Has Iran really been participating amongst all the Arabs? Fay Freak (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak, you say that "[n]one of those means gun" and removed the Persian from the entry, but Hayyim defines بندق as "A musket." Moreover, that would explain the same semantic transfer in Hindustani, which obviously got the word itself via Persian. This would be highly irregular if it were from بُنْدُقِيَّة (bunduqiyya), which should produce *bundukia. So what is your reasoning for removing it? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:06, 16 January 2020 (UTC)