Talk:clarsach
Latest comment: 5 years ago by Sgconlaw in topic RFV discussion: May 2018
The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
Requesting verification that this entered English in the "late 15th c.". DTLHS (talk) 18:32, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note: that was indicated by Oxford Dictionaries Online. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:35, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- If that's the case there should be written evidence in the 400 years between the 15th and 19th centuries. DTLHS (talk) 18:44, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- OED (1st ed.) indicates the 15th-century forms clareschaw and clerschew, the 17th-century form clersha, and the 18th-century form clarishoe; the headword is clairschach. Perhaps searches should be made for these forms. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:45, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- I can find Scots citations of clareschaw, but haven't yet found an English one (from that time depth, anyway); I note that the OED treats Scots as English, so it's possible this entered Scots (and the OED considers that the entry date) earlier than it entered what we consider English. Century mentions the spellings clairschach, clairseach, clarshech, clerschew, clersha, clarishoe, clearsach, clairsach; it also mentions a noun in -er for a player of the instrument, but I can only find one citation of "clairschacher" and one of "clarsachers". - -sche (discuss) 20:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- The earliest English examples I've found so far, for any of the spellings, are from the 1830s. - -sche (discuss) 14:11, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- Please add them to the entry. Should we update the
{{defdate}}? — SGconlaw (talk) 00:18, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
- Please add them to the entry. Should we update the
- The earliest English examples I've found so far, for any of the spellings, are from the 1830s. - -sche (discuss) 14:11, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
- I can find Scots citations of clareschaw, but haven't yet found an English one (from that time depth, anyway); I note that the OED treats Scots as English, so it's possible this entered Scots (and the OED considers that the entry date) earlier than it entered what we consider English. Century mentions the spellings clairschach, clairseach, clarshech, clerschew, clersha, clarishoe, clearsach, clairsach; it also mentions a noun in -er for a player of the instrument, but I can only find one citation of "clairschacher" and one of "clarsachers". - -sche (discuss) 20:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- OED (1st ed.) indicates the 15th-century forms clareschaw and clerschew, the 17th-century form clersha, and the 18th-century form clarishoe; the headword is clairschach. Perhaps searches should be made for these forms. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:45, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- If that's the case there should be written evidence in the 400 years between the 15th and 19th centuries. DTLHS (talk) 18:44, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- I've added a citation of the spelling clarshech from 1821, and removed the 15th century defdate. Walter Scott seems to have also used the word, writing in one novel "He is particularly delighted by her skill in music, which is so exquisite, that she far exceeds the best performers in this country in playing on the clairshach, or harp." Curiously, this (1840s?) book, in what appears to be a glossary of Irish or Scottish Gaelic words, calls clairseach "a modern word", and indeed the oldest citation the Dictionar o the Scots Leid has is the one from Walter Scott, which they date to 1819 (although they seem to suggest in the etymology that the word is attested "from 1491"). - -sche (discuss) 17:02, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks! I managed to pre-date the clarshech quotation to 1810, which makes it slightly older than the Walter Scott quotations (also added). — SGconlaw (talk) 03:26, 28 May 2018 (UTC)