Talk:cleaning

RFD discussion: June–December 2022

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cleaning

Rfd-sense "That which cleans." Not gradable, no special meaning, so it's just the verb. Added here by User:Inner Focus. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 11:55, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

It's defined as an attributive verb, yes. However, it's also frequently used to state that something's purpose is to facilitate cleaning, which is not verbal, and may not even entail doing any cleaning itself. e.g. cleaning gloves, and compare sitting room. Even with things that do clean, they may not be cleaning at a given time (i.e. cleaning products don't stop being cleaning products simply because they're sitting in a bottle). Theknightwho (talk) 14:35, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Compare Talk:gardening. (I've also rephrased it, since "that which cleans" would be a noun, not an adjective. Common error around here.) Equinox ◑ 15:49, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure I like the test that you have to be able to use it in a predicative way for it to be a true adjective. By that logic, former and main aren't adjectives. Theknightwho (talk) 17:04, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Whether cleaning is also an adjective is another debate but keep for cleaning as a noun. Cleaning doesn’t seem to be analogous to gardening as you can give your teeth regular cleanings but I don’t think you can give your garden regular gardenings. Overlordnat1 (talk) 17:39, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Do we delete gerunds normally? Aware that we're getting a bit off-topic here. Theknightwho (talk) 18:05, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1: This RFD concerns the adjective, not the noun. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 19:12, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Oops! Delete the adjective (as it seems too much like a gerund like ‘growing’ etc, which we don’t keep). Overlordnat1 (talk) 12:34, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Theknightwho None of the tests is necessary or sufficient in itself- there are exceptions to all of them, both terms that pass a particular test, but aren't adjectives, and adjectives that don't pass it. It's more a matter of cumulative probabilities than anything binary and airtight. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:51, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Is a cleaning cloth "a cloth that cleans" or "a cloth for cleaning"? I think either could apply. I have often placed a quote under the participle for want of an entry for the adjective. DonnanZ (talk) 04:37, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

In that combination, cleaning fails most of the tests of being an adjective. In a combination adj noun, the main stress is on the noun. In a combination noun-adj noun, the main stress is on the noun adjunct. This shows (I think) that the attribute cleaning in cleaning cloth is a noun adjunct, and so cleaning is a gerundial noun here. In some cases we confer Noun status on gerunds (abandoning, mothering, zooming), but in most cases not. The criterion we use is that uses of their plural form can be attested (which cleaning passes with flying colours), and moreover, that they have a distinctive meaning not immediately obvious from the definition of the verb, which, I think, cleaning fails.  --Lambiam 07:22, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

You are conflating gerunds with verbal nouns in general. An English gerund can only refer to the action in general (e.g. “cleaning” the concept) and is therefore inherently uncountable. Verbal nouns more widely, though, can also refer to specific instances which are countable, but these take various forms that differ between verbs. For this verb it’s usually “clean” (“we did two cleans today”), but occasionally people use “cleaning” which explains the plural (compare “kill” which also takes both).

However, I think “cleaning” is a gerund in transition to being a true adjective, because I can find plenty of (albeit odd-sounding) uses of “cleaningly” being used as an adverb to mean “in a cleaning fashion”. It’s unusual, but it does exist. Theknightwho (talk) 11:22, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

At least I’m not alone in committing this sin of grammatical conflation; see the label at cleaning#Noun sense 1. True gerunds function as nouns; an -ing on the way to becoming an adjective is more likely originally a present participle, such as we see in sparkling water.  --Lambiam 19:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Cleaning supplies aren't supplies that clean like a dancing bear dances or running water runs, but are more like dancing shoes that don't dance and running shoes that don't run. "Cleaning crew" is a bit trickier- if they don't clean, they're not doing their job, but they're still a cleaning crew. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:07, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

On second thought, the "dancing bear" part doesn't fit, Chuck Entz (talk) 21:35, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the stress thing is what convinces me. "She gave me some healing herbs" (stress on noun: they are herbs that just happen to induce healing). "You can restore hit points in this game with a healing potion" (stress on adjective: it's a specific type of potion for healing, not just a potion that happens to heal you). Equinox ◑ 21:12, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

• Deleted Flackofnubs (talk) 09:31, 23 December 2022 (UTC)