Talk:d'un certain âge
Latest comment: 9 months ago by Imetsia in topic RFD discussion: October 2020–August 2023
The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
SOP: "un certain âge" (which can also be used with other prepositions: "à un certain âge", "passé un certain âge"), "un certain temps", "un certain nombre", etc. 212.224.227.168 12:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Certain is quite idiomatic here and is a euphemism for 'older'. It has this meaning only when used before (and not after) 'âge'. In "un certain temps", "un certain nombre" the meaning is much vaguer and does not imply a larger quantity but on the contrary a small one (as per the TLFI: exprime le caractère particulier difficile à préciser ou la faible mais réelle quantité). It is also referenced in the TLFI (at 'âge', not at 'certain'): (Être) d'un certain âge. Ne plus être jeune.
- It shouldn't at least be deleted before adding these acceptations of 'older' and 'small and undefined' to the "certain" article. Or maybe create "un certain âge" as a phrase? - Olybrius (talk) 13:39, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- d'un certain âge certainly has some claim to idiomaticity, but I don't think it deserves an entry. It should be a usage example at certain (which indeed is missing the sense we're talking about).
- "certain" doesn't mean "older", it means "quite high/big". That might not be entirely relevant, but "vieux" doesn't collocate with "âge" in French, you can't say "*vieil âge" ("old age" would be "grand âge" or "âge avancé").
- No one here suggested that certain by itself means “older“. I dispute that it means “quite high/big”. Used as a determiner, the meaning is basically the same as for English. --Lambiam 19:30, 22 October 2020 (UTC)¨
- @Lambiam: All right, "quite high/big" maybe isn't a good gloss either. I believe "(quite) some" is closer to the truth.
- Regarding the other part of your message, well, how should I interpret Olybrius' first sentence? ("Certain is quite idiomatic here and is a euphemism for 'older'. It has this meaning only when used before (and not after) 'âge'")
- What I meant in my answer is that not only does "certain" not have that meaning by itself (is this grammatical?), it does not have that meaning in combination with "âge" either. "older" is simply not a good gloss.
- Anyway, what do you think should be done with this entry? 2A02:2788:A6:935:E553:100B:D4FC:35E4 14:18, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- I do not think that certain per se carries a connotation of “quite some”. It is the context in which it is used that may imply this – or not, depending on that context. In many cases, “un certain nombre de” is best translated as “a number of”. In “il faut un certain temps à un corps quelconque pour traverser d’un point A à un point B”, it merely means that a body cannot travel instantaneously from A to B; the time needed may, however, depending on the case, be measured in femtoseconds or in eons. However, it cannot be denied that most uses of the expression d’un certain âge serve as a euphemism for “middle-aged or even older” – not just “middle-aged” as the current definition reads. In view of such cases as “atteindre un certain âge“, perhaps the lemma should be un certain âge, with a usex involving d’un certain âge and a label marking it as a euphemism, and then d’un certain âge can redirect there. --Lambiam 21:52, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Lambiam: Now I wonder: are you yourself d'un certain âge? 2A02:2788:A6:935:319E:F100:EA75:8B13 22:20, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- I do not think that certain per se carries a connotation of “quite some”. It is the context in which it is used that may imply this – or not, depending on that context. In many cases, “un certain nombre de” is best translated as “a number of”. In “il faut un certain temps à un corps quelconque pour traverser d’un point A à un point B”, it merely means that a body cannot travel instantaneously from A to B; the time needed may, however, depending on the case, be measured in femtoseconds or in eons. However, it cannot be denied that most uses of the expression d’un certain âge serve as a euphemism for “middle-aged or even older” – not just “middle-aged” as the current definition reads. In view of such cases as “atteindre un certain âge“, perhaps the lemma should be un certain âge, with a usex involving d’un certain âge and a label marking it as a euphemism, and then d’un certain âge can redirect there. --Lambiam 21:52, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
- No one here suggested that certain by itself means “older“. I dispute that it means “quite high/big”. Used as a determiner, the meaning is basically the same as for English. --Lambiam 19:30, 22 October 2020 (UTC)¨
- Also, I don't agree that "certain" imply a small quantity. When, for example, someone says "Ça fait un certain temps que je me pose cette question", they mean that they've been asking themselves that question for quite some time (i.e. for a rather long time). 212.224.227.168 13:56, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note that the exact same expression exists in English: "of a certain age". (see Lexico, Collins). 212.224.227.168 14:03, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- I doesn't need the preposition of. For example, “Once you reach a certain age, everything after that is downhill.”[1] Same in French: “Lorsque vous atteignez un certain âge, vous commencez à penser que vous êtes vieux.”[2] --Lambiam 19:30, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Delete therefore. Fay Freak (talk) 14:09, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- I doesn't need the preposition of. For example, “Once you reach a certain age, everything after that is downhill.”[1] Same in French: “Lorsque vous atteignez un certain âge, vous commencez à penser que vous êtes vieux.”[2] --Lambiam 19:30, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Note that the exact same expression exists in English: "of a certain age". (see Lexico, Collins). 212.224.227.168 14:03, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep, seems like this is the original fixed phrase, and the other variants (including of a certain age) are derived from it – Jberkel 11:50, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Delete as proponent, or at the very least move to (un) certain âge. @Jberkel, what do you mean by "other variants"? PUC – 12:03, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- I was suggesting that the shorter variants are all later usages, and less specific. But that's speculation. – Jberkel 12:34, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hard-redirect to certain âge. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 19:26, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per Jberkel. We can have an additional entry for "certain âge", but if it's derivative of a longer phrase, both should be kept. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 04:55, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Don't know whether I get a vote - I'm not a regular commentator, and don't have a log-in. I found this while checking my understanding of a story in Le Figaro, 10 Apr 2023. A building collapsed in Marseille, a local official commented on the people missing:«Il s'agit de personnes d'un certain âge et d'un jeune couple d'une trentaine d'années». So this is an expression in regular use, and a user should be able to find it. I found it in the French Wiktionnaire, described as a "locution adjectivale", with the definition:(Par euphémisme) Plutôt âgé.Comparing with Wiktionary, I found the definition "middle-aged", with the request for deletion. I don't know whether there is any policy about consistency between different language versions, but we should at least be able to justify a divergence. So my vote would be to keep, but change the definition to "rather elderly" to match Wiktionnaire. PeterKenny. 87.115.185.29 15:18, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete. Imetsia (talk (more)) 21:06, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
- RFD-kept by no consensus. Imetsia (talk (more)) 14:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)