Talk:dessen

Double Genitive

The second example, "die Ankunft meines Bruders und dessen Verlobter" on the linked-to Duden page contradicts the second example of "wrong usage" given. --134.101.23.33 18:39, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, to some degree it does, but not really. The point is that "Verlobte" has adjectival declension and that makes it different. Also otherwise this use is possible with an intervening adjective: "die Ankunft meines Bruders und dessen junger Frau". I've added the word "noun" to make it perhaps a bit clearer. Going into all the details, in my opinion, would be too wordy for a dictionary. 178.4.151.68 23:36, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

PS: This is like the fact that you can say "der Geschmack guten Käses", while you cannot say *"der Geschmack Käses". This is because the German genitive (except with proper nouns) always needs to be supported by an article, determiner, or adjective. The point is that dessen/deren are not able to lend this support, but a following adjective can. 178.4.151.68 23:43, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

PPS: Another requirement for the genitive is that in the masculine and neuter either the article/determiner or the noun must have the ending -(e)s. Compare the following:

*"die Ankunft meiner Schwester und deren Mannes" -- not possible because there is no supporting adjective.

*"die Ankunft meiner Schwester und deren (jungen) Verlobten" -- not possible because no word ends in -(e)s.

"die Ankunft meiner Schwester und deren jungen Mannes" -- possible because you have both an adjective and a noun in -(e)s.

The genitive is really a somewhat limited case in modern German. We have a note on that under von. 178.4.151.68 23:51, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

PPPS: Sorry :D I hope this is the last "P". -- The same rules apply when a genitive follows a proper noun in the genitive. So you can't say *"die Ankunft Marias Mannes", but you can say *"die Ankunft Marias jungen Mannes". So to sum up: you always need an article, determiner, or adjective before the noun, and when the phrase is masculine/neuter one of the words must end in -s. 178.4.151.68 00:12, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

"you always need an article, determiner, or adjective before the noun" is a strong tendency in modern German, but not an absolute rule. Consider: Although a phrasing such as Becher voll Weines is rare and really only found in an elevated literary register (with Becher voll Wein significantly more common), it is perfectly allowable under the grammar rules. Another counterexample is nouns following a preposition that rules the genitive, in which case the noun may be inflected or left uninflected. Duden lists wegen Umbau(s) as one such example, both of which have contemporary usage. Megathon7 (talk) 20:22, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I eliminated the assertion "The mistake is from hypercorrection" . This needs a source. Consider the following:

Sie hat den Brüdern ihres Freundes geholfen.

→ Sie hat ihres Freundes Brüdern geholfen.

Brüder continues to be inflected to Brüdern in the dative plural, even though it is not preceded by any determiner. A similar analysis could happen with the genitive:

Nach dem Tod seines Vaters wurde er Leiter des Betriebes seines Vaters.

→?Nach dem Tod seines Vaters wurde er Leiter seines Vaters Betriebes.

→?Nach dem Tod seines Vaters wurde er Leiter dessen Betriebes.

This would result from using the prenominal genitive and not with trying to avoid a von + dative construction. I am unable to find an authoritative source that states such a prenominal genitive construction is officially disallowed; without such a source, I am inclined to strike this "double genitive" section out entirely. Megathon7 (talk) 20:42, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I have struck this section of the usage notes out. Consider that Da ist das Haus des Mannes, seines Bruders und des Freundes seines Bruders is grammatical. Which rule would then render as ungrammatical Da ist das Haus des Mannes, seines Bruders und dessen Freundes? The objection is raised under the genitive rule: "Eine NP kann nur dann im Genitiv stehen, wenn die folgenden zwei Bedingungen erfüllt sind: (i) Die NP enthält mindestens ein Artikelwort oder Adjektiv mit Flexionsendung als primären Merkmalsträger. (ii) Die NP enthält mindestens ein Wort mit Endung ‐es/‐s oder ‐er. Wenn die Bedingungen nicht eingehalten werden können, ist eine Ersatzkonstruktion zu wählen." (A noun phrase can only be in the genitive when the following two conditions are fulfilled: (i) The noun phrase contains at least an article/determiner or adjective with an inflection ending serving as the primary marker. (ii) The noun phrase contains at least one word with an ending of -es/-s or -er. If these conditions cannot be met, then a substitute construction must be selected.)

For this reason, a phrase such as der Verkauf Holzes is ungrammatical. However, this rule is not absolute. One such exception is wegen + masculine/neuter singular noun in the genitive, an example of which is wegen Umbaus.

In an analysis of the particularities of the genitive rule, Prof. Dr. Peter Gallmann gives the following example with deren: Sie hatte ausführlich von der Entführung Arzus aus der Wohnung deren Freundes in Remmighausen berichtet. This would appear to be a violation of the genitive rule, yet Gallmann does not mark it as incorrect. Rather, he lists it as questionable.

For dessen, Duden provides this example: die Ankunft meines Bruders und dessen Verlobter. Here, Verlobte, a nominalized adjective, is standing in the singular, strong genitive inflection Verlobter. This is also a violation of the "genitive rule", as there is neither an article/determiner nor an adjective. (A nominalized adjective is a noun.) Yet, Duden recognizes this as grammatical. It is not tagged as colloquial or nonstandard.

Given that sentences such as Nach dem Tod seines Vaters wurde er Leiter dessen Betriebes are used in formal registers of German, recognized as fully grammatical by some native speakers, questionable by some, and ungrammatical by others, this usage is more of a matter of opinion/style, as opposed to a clear-cut grammar rule. Megathon7 (talk) 22:00, 5 October 2022 (UTC)