Talk:fustet

The spellings for the species epithet for the taxonomic name are in conflict. DCDuring TALK 05:59, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Via Catalan or Occitan?

@Fay Freak Thank you for noticing that I hadn't addressed the Old Catalan entry.

I'm not sure what about the form would indicate an Occitan intermediary, considering that both languages have inherited the ending -et from Latin -ĭttus. Nicodene (talk) 20:03, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nicodene: When I added this plant name and its forms in various languages there was a convoluted thought process and review of claimed origins and forms and used forms that I cannot wholly reconstruct what I judged, but of course it came down to the word starting in Occitan: according to then Wiktionary practice Catalan had to inherit from it (which I understood as Proto-Occitano-Romance), but after our paradigm shift what is left must be a borrowing from one language into the other. (The direction is left open now, which is okay so far.) It is a bit strange that for French one finds the -c forms as in the Arabic source while for Occitan and Catalan I found none such mentioned, and apparently I assumed that that is again secondary in French or perhaps borrowed from an unattested Occitan original form, left open. Apparently we don’t know what to do here now. Fay Freak (talk) 20:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fay Freak We can say '...with the ending substituted by the masculine diminutive -et, from Latin -ittus; compare [cognate in the other language]'.

To judge by the FEW entry, festuc and fustet are both attested in Old Occitan, and modern Catalan has both forms. (No *fustec in either, however.) Nicodene (talk) 21:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nicodene: But note that the question is which forms are attested for the meaning smoke tree, Cotinus coggygria! See how fast you are confused by the matter—don’t forget the meanings while diving in the forms! I admitted festuc already in the Arabic descendants tree فُسْتُق (fustuq) but in the meaning of pistachio, and assumed fustet being a diminutive derivation of festuc, with perhaps different vocalizations relevant—phonologically easier in Occitan than in Catalan? Unfortunately all information here is irrelevant as long as we don’t know it to concern the meaning of a smoke-tree as distinguished from any pistachio tree. Fay Freak (talk) 22:13, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fay Freak I said that both languages show fustet and festuc, not that both mean 'pistachio'.

Also, what source supports the words surviving as such in modern Occitan? Nicodene (talk) 22:42, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nicodene: That I already knew, but the meaning “smoke tree” is relevant here, wantonly neglected by scholars lumping the meanings in one treatment. Thus I have obtained no information about the -c form in Catalan or Occitan but in French. You would not think the meaning developed separately or independently in Occitan and Catalan? I cannot argue anything for our smoke-tree lemma from forms meaning something else.

I don’t know anymore about the sources for the Occitan. Surely someone sloppily claimed there an “Occitan fustet” from which one could understand “Modern Occitan”, and maybe someone said it is currently spoken in his time (why would it have died out though there but not in Catalan? But if died out it must have made it to Modern Occitan even if you understand “Old Occitan” were broadly encompassing parts of the modern age). I don’t know what exactly you are asking, whether it is obsolete or archaic in Modern Occitan or whether it has made it to Modern Occitan at all—the latter why not, this wood was relevant until the 19th century. Fay Freak (talk) 22:57, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

My doubts were regarding the direction of spread, as the title of this thread indicates- obviously the Occitan and Catalan fustet are not independent innovations. (Note that the TLFi gives the Occitan term as a borrowing from Catalan.) I have updated the entry accordingly.

Incidentally, the same TLFi entry states that the modern Occitan counterpart to Old Occitan fustet is fustel. Nicodene (talk) 23:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

It also seems rather implausible that the dated French fustec represents a spontaneous re-development of /-k/. Nicodene (talk) 23:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)