Talk:island state

RFD discussion: October 2022–January 2023

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island state

Though I am adding this here, I am abstaining, we do not currently have island nation or island country, these are all possibly SOP, but also possibly terms-of-art in which case they should be kept (or added in the case of nation and country). Thoughts? - TheDaveRoss 13:25, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

It could be ambiguous, and mean either a federal state or an island country. Lexico says "An island governed by a single autonomous body" and gives Tasmania as an example. That would presumably apply to Hawaii too, although there's more than one island. But whether independent countries, such as Fiji, are described as island states needs checking. DonnanZ (talk) 20:43, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

As far as the ambiguity between a federal/subnational or national state, that's just because state is ambiguous, no? Adjacent states or states that border the Pacific show the same ambiguity, because it's inherent in state. - -sche (discuss) 07:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

You can Google the island state of Hawaii / Sri Lanka / New Zealand / Japan / Malta / Cyprus / Madagascar / Fiji and get hits for all of them. DonnanZ (talk) 09:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I can't tell if we're agreeing or disagreeing. 😅 What was your point in bringing up that it can be polysemous? I get plenty of results for just "the state of Hawaii / Sri Lanka / etc", too, because state itself is ambiguous/polysemous; it seems only logical that the polysemy of state continues to exist in compounds and phrases containing state. - -sche (discuss) 21:16, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether we're agreeing to disagree... DonnanZ (talk) 23:37, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Keep and carefully define it according to usage, and add attesting quotations showing to the reader that it refers to both sovereign countries and non-sovereign states. It may be kind of sum of parts, but pretty confusing, requiring lexicographical research to gain confidence in use of the term. And Lexico definition is wrong: a state (organization or political unit) is not an island (geographic region). And Lexico would exclude U.K., since U.K. is not a single island and not on a single island; it would exclude Japan, not a single island. The confusion is borne out by someone entering "island country" and "island nation" as synonyms, which they are not if Hawaii is an island state, unless one claims that Hawaii is a "constituent country" as "England", but that term is probably not used in reference to Hawaii. The confusion is further borne out by Lexico mistakes. As said, let us help remove any confusion from the prospective user of the term. Part of the job is played by W:Island country, which has a beautiful map (which we could have too), but WP seems to restrict the article to sovereign countries. And if U.K. is an island state, our definition is wrong: "A state consisting of one or more islands"; it should be "A state, whether sovereign or dependent, located exclusively on islands." Even that is wrong if Gibraltar is part of the U.K. so we get "A state, whether sovereign or dependent, located almost exclusively on islands." There. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:19, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Lexico is not wrong, it just doesn't cover all aspects. I have visited Tasmania and Hawaii, and know they are island states. Rhode Island is mostly on the mainland, and doesn't qualify. The UK doesn't qualify, it shares an island with the republic of Ireland, and Gibraltar is in the European continent; Great Britain is a large island, not a country. Indonesia, although all on islands, doesn't qualify, as two islands are partly in Malaysia and Papua-New Guinea. In my view, an island state is an island, or group of islands, not shared by other countries or federal states. DonnanZ (talk) 11:34, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• 2016, Christopher Martin, The UK as a Medium Maritime Power in the 21st Century:

  The UK is an island state that is also a maritime globalised state whose health, wealth and stability depend upon the health, wealth and stability of the maritime-based globalised economic and political order.

• 2018, Eva Heims, Building EU Regulatory Capacity:

  As island state the UK requires large capacities to monitor its coasts and the ships calling at its ports.

I pass no judgment on whether this use is "proscribed"; I just report the use. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:52, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

One can also think of the purpose of ranking something as "island state": one purpose has to do with defensibility of the territory. Even if U.K. is in part in Ireland and Gibraltar, it has the defensibility features resulting from "located almost exclusively on islands"; unless Republic of Ireland attacks, which seems rather unlikely. These defensibility features turned to be of huge import during WWII, obviously. This kind of notion of "island state" is useful, and is therefore a candidate meaning to be verified or falsified by usage quotes. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The term can be loosely applied, sure. The UK and Irish Republic are only at loggerheads over repercussions from the UK leaving the EU, which was a disastrous move. The Lexico wording "governed by a single autonomous body" is quite relevant, so my definition should be changed to "an island, or group of islands, governed by a single autonomous body, and not shared by other countries or federal states". DonnanZ (talk) 12:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Lexico cannot be blindly trusted, given how they would exclude Japan as well. The def needs to address my points. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:10, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

But Japan is autonomous (self-governing), surely? DonnanZ (talk) 13:27, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Japan is not "An island governed by a single autonomous body": it is not a single island. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:30, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

In English compounds of this (singular A)+B kind, the number of A can be anything. A "tomato drink" could contain many tomatoes. You'd never say "a tomatoes drink". (I can think of exceptions, like "games room", but they are unusual.) Equinox ◑ 15:41, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Sure. I am just disputing Lexico's definition (which I quoted) starting with "An island". The term itself does not say that single island is at stake; I agree with you here. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Most people know that Japan has several islands under one government. DonnanZ (talk) 15:56, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• RFD-kept: no consensus for deletion. In particular, no boldface delete, not even the nominator, although the only boldface keep is from me. Enough time has passed. (WT:VPRFD) --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:07, 6 January 2023 (UTC)