Talk:pasensiya

Baybayin

@Deeeeeeekun The IPA input was just different because we can't get the "sy" thing automatically be /sj/ and /sija/ has a tendency to be /sja/ on non stressed syllables. The Baybayin you are trying to put is already at pasensya. We here at Wiktionary have agreed before that each variant should have their own Baybayin if their spelling variates (like with the changing -ng-/-m/-n- infixes). Yes, Baybayin is based on pronunciation but the Baybayin does not specify stress. báta and batá use the same Baybayin. This time the stress is pasénsiyá and the current Baybayin entry is a valid Baybayin for that. Quick two cents, if you go consult Doctrina Christiana, grasya was written as ga-ra-si-ya not ga-ra-ya. Pasensiya (Pre-Virama script) would then be written as pa-si-si-ya (pasi_siya), not pa-si-ya.Ysrael214 (talk) 07:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Deeeeeeekun Also, with your proposal, "siya" would then be written in Baybayin as s-ya, but always has been si-ya. Ysrael214 (talk) 07:32, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Siya is still sometimes read siya. But pasensiya has always been pasensiya because that's how it was pronounced in Spanish as well. Deeeeeeekun (talk) 10:46, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Just realized that might be confusing. I meant siya is still sometimes pronounced si-ya (e.g. formal orations, songs). But pasensiya is always pa-sen-sya. Deeeeeeekun (talk) 10:57, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Deeeeeeekun The baybayin pa-sen-sya form is already recorded at the pasensya entry. For the baybayin pa-sen-siya form, it would make more sense to have that in the pasensiya entry. As for which page the main entry is recorded at despite the alternative forms people also tend to spell it as, we usually follow what the government regulator (KWF - Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino) at KWF's Pambansang Diksiyonaryo | Diksiyonaryo.ph mainly records. Mlgc1998 (talk) 00:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Who are you referring to by "we at Wiktionary"? Also, Doctrina Christiana was written by a Spanish person trying to make sense of Tagalog. They also, write Hesu Kristo as si-su ki-ri-to, so it's not very reliable. Deeeeeeekun (talk) 10:49, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Deeeeeeekun Other editors when the Baybayin module was first implemented to ease Baybayin writing. It was written as Si-su_ ki-ri_-to because the <J> isn't pronounced like /h/ right now but /s/ around the 1500s (Juan was written as su-wa_ there). Tagalog was strictly CVC in syllabification before. Ki-ri_-to is a valid Baybayin of Cristo especially the virama (cross sign) was not invented until the Ilocano Kuritan version. And si-su ki-ri-to doesn't seem to hold relevance for the "siya" part that we're discussing though? Anyway, back to the main point with the modern Baybayin spellings, pa-se-n-si-ya is still a valid Baybayin writing for the pronunciation of pasensiya. The stress is at the SEN. So is pa-se-n-s-ya, but it's better to write the pa-se-n-s-ya Baybayin at the variant pasensya to indicate they're both valid. Ysrael214 (talk) 13:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Is there a forum to raise concerns regarding the current implementation? I mentioned sisu kirito as a counterexample of why Doctrina Christiana couldn't really be "consulted" because even you have said that it isn't consistent with our current pronunciations. Do you mean it's accepted to add Baybayin entries under "Alternative forms"? Deeeeeeekun (talk) 01:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Deeeeeeekun It was written as Sisu Kirito before because it was pronounced SisuKristo before. Now, we put HisuKristo because it is the pronunciation now. For the -siya, the -sya, and the -siya is the same thing

the /j/ is just the the consonant version of /i/ and serves no major pronunciation difference. Hence the SI-YA is valid for pasénsiyá. I'm only talking about the "-siya" suffix, please do not sidetrack.

This can be the forum itself.

Tagging @Mar vin kaiser @TagaSanPedroAko @Houflings @Mlgc1998, thoughts?

For the sake of discussion, let's consider siyensiya. Do we write it as SI-YE-N-SI-YA or S-YE-N-S-YA or SI-YE-N-S-YA OR S-YE-N-SI-YA? Ysrael214 (talk) 08:27, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Deeeeeeekun Doctrina Christiana en lengua española y tagala (1593) was writen by Spanish friar, Fray Juan de Plasencia, in Early Spanish Manila during the Early Spanish colonial times, where they did have direct consultation with native Tagalog speakers in Manila that they learned the language from, just like they did with Doctrina Christiana en letra y lengua china (1593) and native Hokkien speakers residing in Manila at that time. The Spanish friars used "ᜐᜒ"(Si/Se/Zi/Ze) at that time because Early Modern Spanish ⟨X⟩/⟨J⟩/⟨G⟩ were indeed pronounced more like a /ʃ/ (SH) sound which evolved from Old Spanish ⟨X⟩ /ʃ/ and ⟨J⟩ /ʒ/ (See History of the Spanish language#Modern development of the Old Spanish sibilants and Phonological history of Spanish coronal fricatives). They spelled it with the Baybayin glyph closest to S- because that was the closest sound to /ʃ/ (SH) they could use in Baybayin and likewise -e and -i vowels in Baybayin and Tagalog at that time and in general, Philippine languages, ⟨I⟩ and ⟨E⟩ were interchangeable, just like ⟨O⟩ and ⟨U⟩. They perceived it as an S sound as well when they transcribed Spanish names to Hokkien in Doctrina Christiana en letra y lengua china (1593) such as in the Hokkien title of that book with Fray Juan Cobo's name transcribed as 高母羨／高母羡 (Kobó Soān). Several early Spanish loanwords in Tagalog also exhibit this, such as sabon (from Spanish jabón) (Cf. habonero from Spanish jabonero), singkamas (from Spanish jícama), sugal (from Spanish jugar), sugarol (from Spanish jugador, doublet of hugador), saro (from Spanish jarro, doublet of haro), etc. "Sesu" was also a legit early Philippine Hokkien term, 西士 (Se-sū, “Jesus”), used in Hokkien prayers by Catholic Sangley Chinese in Manila centuries ago during early Spanish colonial times recorded in the Doctrina Christiana en letra y lengua china (1593) and as researched in Manila Incunabula, Part 1 (1966) and part 2 (1967). Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)