Talk:school

I have added "to defeat emphatically" as this is a common use of school (as a verb). I'm unsure as to whether this should be marked as a slang term, and would welcome comments on the subject. Guinness2702 19:26, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Tea room discussion

Note: the below discussion was moved from the Wiktionary:Tea room.

What is going on? How is it possibly pronunced /sku:l/ ?? The same thing seems to be on cool. Does "school" rhyme with "rude"? No. So why is it written like this? Nwspel 14:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

(do you mean rule? it isn't going to rhyme with "rude") what exactly is supposed to be wrong? (Where are you from BTW?) The /sku:l/ pronunciation seems fine to me. Robert Ullmann 15:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll try explain this. Wiktionary says that "rude" is pronunced /ru:d/ , that "rule" is pronunced /ru:l/ and that "school" is pronunced /sku:l/. I generally here rule and school using the same vowel as eachother, but I have never come across any dialect that makes them use the same vowel as rude. As far as I am aware, the "rude" article is written with the right vowel - but the school, cool, and rule articles must be wrong. Take the word "rude"; and say it out loud, with exactly the same vowel, and replace the 'd' with 'l', and the result is not the same as "rule". The reason being; they are different vowels. I speak British English btw. Nwspel 15:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, but "rude" and "school" have the same vowel in US/GenAm, which is how it is labeled. And "rude" and "rule" differ only in the consonant. So the "dialect" you've never come across is GenAm ... what vowel do you use in school and rule that isn't /u:/? (Mind you, I've never heard any difference in UK/Commonwealth English either.) Robert Ullmann 15:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

From what I remember of GA before, it was always the same as the English. Although its hardly going to help my case, I don't actually know what the IPA is for the sound; although it sounds very rounded. Try this: Say the word "stool". It rhymes with "school". Now say "sue" (/su:/). Do not change the vowel, but add 'l' onto the end. It should sound rather uncomfortable, as usually, when followed by an 'l', the vowel tends to "migrate" into the one I am describing, but if you are conscious of what you are doing, you can keep the same vowel. Right, now once you have done that, compare it to the sound in "stool". Stool... Sue(l)... it's not the same. Nwspel 15:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) In the UK I've heard "school", "rude" and "rule" all using the /u:/ vowel, but in some Northern accents, I have heard "school" and "rule" as "/sku(:).@l/" and "/ru(:).@l/" with the vowels either side of the syllable break sometimes dipthongised. Possibly this is the difference you are hearing? Thryduulf 15:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

No that's not what I mean, and I come from the south, but I do know what you are talking about with relation to Northern English dialects though. Erm... I am really struggling to explain this. Ok I think might know how. Think of the word "ruler" /ru:lɘ/... now take away the schwa in your pronunciation, from the end of the word, (whithout changing the internal vowel), and it gives you /ru:l/ but when you pronunce it out loud (as I have instructed), it does not give the same pronunciation as "rule". Nwspel 15:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It does for me. (But I pronounce the <r>.) (I'm American; for an explanation of my dialect, see my user page.) I've tried searching for this issue in the archives of alt.usage.english on Google Groups, but cannot seem to find anything. (One problem is that the word rule is so common when discussing pronunciations, and school is pretty common when discussin prescriptivism. Of course, other words can be searched for instead of these, but I don't know what you pronounce how, Nwspel. Where are you from, more precisely? One can search for that county or city name....)—msh210℠ 17:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I speak a non-Rhotic accent (I don't pronounce the peripheral 'r's). I live in Kent, a county in the south of the UK. But the pronunciations, as far as I am aware, were present in all English. I'll try again. In some "common" accents, some people may pronunce the word "bottle" as "boh-'ww". I know that's far from a helpful representation for you, lol, but hopefully you will understand what I mean. Anyway, that "ww" part is the vowel I am talking about. I was going to compare it to the "w" in "bowl", but now that I look at the article you have, it states the English pronunciation as /bəʊl/ - I don't think anyone pronunces it like that in England. It's more like /bʌʊl/ if anything... but it's not, because that "ʊ" isn't right. /ʊ/ is the sound in "good", and not the same as in the english pronunciation of "bowl". That vowel in "school" is the same as the 'common accent' version of "bottle" that I spoke about, and also as the second vowel in the diphthong in "bowl". I know this isn't a great description, but I'm trying to give the best explanation I can, sorry. Nwspel 18:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Since I grew up in Kent I think I have a good idea of what accent you speak – it's called w:Estuary English. The phenomenon you seem to be describing is a fairly common one whereby the back vowel becomes centralized before an /l/. So /skuːl/ gets realized as something like [skʉˑl] or [skəʉl]. But what you have to realise is that this is just an allophone, and our pronunciation is showing phonemes. In other words, although you may say [əʉ], most English-speakers will "hear" this as /uː/ (which is why most of us still hear school and rude as being assonant, including me, and I think I have the same accent as you). Widsith 06:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I think for me "rule", in isolation and in many contexts, is two syllables: "ru_e", with the same vowel as in "rude", and "l", with the same syllabic dark "l" as is in "little" or "pebble". Thus for me "rule" + "-er" != "ruler": the former would be three syllables, and the latter is only two. Likewise "rule" + "-ing" != "ruling", and so on. Is this the same thing you mean? … I'm not sure whether that warrants reflection in the pronunciation guide. Other dictionaries, including the AHD and OED, don't bother. —Ruakh_TALK 23:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

schoole

Schoole as an alternative spelling? I saw it on the side of an old building in England. Ferike333 10:16, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

 Done We have schoole. Equinox ◑ 16:00, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Dutch

I'm rather bewildered. Among two etymologies we have a Dutch word once descending from Old Saxon and once from Old Frisian. Since declaring Old Saxon as Dutch's ancestor is a plentiful mistake on Wiktionary, I'd ask somebody to confirm.Dakhart 12:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Proto-Germanic *skōla

Do we have a source for the idea that "Old English scōl (“place of education”)" could be "possibly from Proto-Germanic *skōla (“school”), from Late Latin schola" rather than a loan from directly from Latin into Old English? If it were Old English < Proto-Germanic vocabulary, we'd expect to see the initial as sh-, as in shoal. – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 06:28, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Possible missing older noun senses

Chambers 1908 has "a large hall in English universities, where the examinations for degrees, etc. are held": we have that sense. They then continue: "hence, one of these examinations (generally plural); also the group of studies taken by a man competing for honours in these; (plural) the body of masters and students in a college". Equinox ◑ 15:59, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

in school

Just like in prison, according to https://www.wordreference.com/EnglishUsage/school#1 --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:35, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

a group of fish, whales, porpoises, or other ocean animals of a single type

a group of fish, whales, porpoises, or other ocean animals of a single type
Microsoft® Encarta® 2009

What does of a single type refer to here? --Backinstadiums (talk) 19:52, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

years spent at school

The part of somebody's life spent being taught in a school
After school, he went abroad for two years.

--Backinstadiums (talk) 07:19, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't have to be years: it could just be the school day. "How was school?" Equinox ◑ 12:00, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Possible missing sense: groups of people

We have the generic "multitude" sense. John Camden Hotten's Slang Dictionary (1873) gets more specific: "a knot of men or boys; generally a body of idlers or street gamblers. Also, two or more 'patterers' working together in the streets." Equinox ◑ 12:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)