Talk:short end of the stick

Questions about the term's etymology

To me, "short end of the stick" has always seemed to be a malaphor, blended from "short straw" and "wrong end of the stick". Only more recently have I learned that "short end of the stick" seems to be an idiom in itself - I get the impression that it's an Americanism. Furthermore, I've come across the theory that it comes from poles of sedan chairs sticking out more at one end than the other – the porter who has the short end will have less leverage and therefore a harder job of carrying the chair. I'm wondering if this theory is worthy of inclusion in this entry. WT:ETY doesn't seem to cover the question of how to treat words/phrases whose origin is uncertain but about which one or more theories exist.

But still I wonder: Does the phrase actually occur as a malaphor to any significant extent? Can we cover this somehow? — Smjg (talk) 00:13, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Given the terms commonality, I would be very surprised if it originated as malaphor. This is because most malaphors are never used after their creation and because I am unaware of any other phrase being coined as a malaphor. Additionally, as someone in the US, I have never heard the term spontaneously arise as a malaphor. The closest term with an etymology similar to coming from a malaphor that I can think of is eggcorn, which was brought into common usage by intentional choice. As to the etymology connected to poles used to hold chairs up, I think the inclusion of "the" in the phrase seeming to refer to a single stick and the earlier phrase "worst end of the staff" (see PhraseFinder, also cited in the entry) don't seem to fit well with that explanation. Many editors focus on presenting etymologies with records in text that back them up or investigations by scholars of etymology. When no clear evidence exists, some simply state that the etymology is unknown and has multiple suggested explanations, such at the entry for toe the line. Overall, it is up to editor's discretion and is usually discussed on a case-by-case basis, as we are doing. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 06:06, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I wasn't meaning to suggest that the phrase as described here originated/was coined as a malaphor. I was wondering about the extent to which the sequence of words also occurs as a malaphor, in which case it might have a different meaning. So you may not have come across it as one in the US, but that doesn't mean it doesn't crop up as such elsewhere. As a Brit, and having first heard a Brit use the sequence of words, I was convinced at the time that the person had mixed up the two expressions, and still think this may have been the case in this particular instance. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean other instances by non-Americans are the same, but it's plausible that the two phrases I quoted may have been mixed up by many people independently of each other. But I guess we don't have enough evidence to cover this at the moment. — Smjg (talk) 18:07, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

As for the other matter of the etymology of the phrase as defined here, it does seem now that the sedan chair theory may be just someone's random idea about where it might've come from. I don't know whether the person who posted the followup comment about gompf sticks has credible evidence that that's the origin. So unless we can attest this, I suppose "though the precise literal meaning is unclear" will do as it is for now. — Smjg (talk) 18:07, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Got it, thank you for the clarification. It could definitely occur a malaphor, which might warrant documentation if it occurs often enough. It would also probably be hard to identify such occurrences without a lot of work and/or listening to audio. I always find it hard/somewhat disappointing/unfortunate that a lot of terms, especially phrases, end up having their etymologies boiling down to something akin to a shrug. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 04:43, 11 February 2021 (UTC)