Talk:trollo
Latest comment: 11 months ago by Froaringus in topic Etymologies
Etymologies
[edit]Hi @Froaringus.
Is it not the case that etymology 1 would reflect trulleum (“basin”), while etymology 2 would (possibly) reflect torculum (“wine or olive press”)?
I don't have access to the source that you've cited, or I would check this myself.
Thanks,
- Nicodene (talk) 19:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hi!
- 2 is probably torculum, I think, through the shaft of the press, but apparently Meyer-Lübke preferred the other option. But 1 is absent from Portuguese. When that is the case, then it is either because the word is a Galician innovation, an independent borrowing from a third language, or a northern-central Galician word that colonists didn't take with them during the "resettlement" of Portugal (which, of course, was not devoid of people). Many of those words are substrate words. While the evolution washbasin > wet place, mud can sound "okayish", I suspect that it is not Latin. Froaringus (talk) 20:35, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
- Consulting Rivas Quintas, Eligio (2015). Dicionario etimolóxico da lingua galega. Santiago de Compostela: Tórculo. →ISBN, s.v. trollo., Eligio Rivas, the author, totally supports trullium, citing as references the dictionaries of Alfred Ernout (704), REW (8949-50) and Walther von Wartburg's "Dictionnaire Etym." (654). He wrote nothing on the first etymology, which is his usual behaviour when he couldn't find any external etymology. Tomorrow I'll try to find something in Coromines' DCECH--Froaringus (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Froaringus: REW 8949–50 (page 680) is trŭlla/*trŭllia, defined there as "Maurerkelle" i.e. a bricklayer's trowel. This corresponds to the DCHECH entry TRULLA II (incredibly, this is also on page 680, vol. Ri–X), which is likewise defined as "llana del albañil".
- The DCHECH entry mentions the existence of the Latin variants trul(l)ium and trulia, apparently attested. Cognate to the Spanish word are Portuguese trolha, Andalusian trolla (“paleta de madera en que los albañiles tienen el yeso para irlo cogiendo con la llana”), Extremaduran troya ("id."), and the Minhoto Portuguese trôlho~trôlha (“nombres de varias medidas para maiz”).
- The Galician word is not mentioned, but it fits in quite well semantically with the Portuguese trolha and Spanish trulla. I was already a bit suspicious of deriving the Galician term from torculum, not necessarily for semantic reasons but rather because of its isolation. (The nearest native descendant of torculum would be Catalan trull.)
- Nicodene (talk) 02:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- As for the FEW entry (vol. 13/2, p. 330), it says that from Latin trua came the Late Latin diminutive truella (> French truelle, English trowel), which underwent contraction to trūlla. It also claims that trūlleum (“basin”) is actually a derivative from the preceding forms. Which would mean that our etymology 1 and 2 for Galician trullo are actually related. Nicodene (talk) 02:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- Great research, Nicodene! --Froaringus (talk) 15:59, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- As for the FEW entry (vol. 13/2, p. 330), it says that from Latin trua came the Late Latin diminutive truella (> French truelle, English trowel), which underwent contraction to trūlla. It also claims that trūlleum (“basin”) is actually a derivative from the preceding forms. Which would mean that our etymology 1 and 2 for Galician trullo are actually related. Nicodene (talk) 02:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
- Consulting Rivas Quintas, Eligio (2015). Dicionario etimolóxico da lingua galega. Santiago de Compostela: Tórculo. →ISBN, s.v. trollo., Eligio Rivas, the author, totally supports trullium, citing as references the dictionaries of Alfred Ernout (704), REW (8949-50) and Walther von Wartburg's "Dictionnaire Etym." (654). He wrote nothing on the first etymology, which is his usual behaviour when he couldn't find any external etymology. Tomorrow I'll try to find something in Coromines' DCECH--Froaringus (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC)