Talk:victory
Latest comment: 7 months ago by P. Sovjunk in topic RFD discussion: December 2022–September 2023
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I do not see how this is an interjection. Equinox ◑ 10:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- Just want to point out it's in the OED. — Sgconlaw (talk) 13:48, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- Stuff like this seems pretty interjection-y to me: "They were poor, but they were rich in faith, and when they died they shouted, 'Victory, victory!'" [1] "In the severest moments of the death-struggle, there was no intermission of the cry. 'Victory, victory, victory,' was still repeated." [2] "when in the rear of the army, and he heard the cannon, far from being frightened […] he cried, Victory! Victory!" [3] etc. Inclined to keep. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 14:36, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- Then freedom is also an interjection: [4], [5], [6]. --Lambiam 22:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- In a hortative sense (as in your example 3, or a Braveheart caricature) I think "freedom" can be usefully defined as an interjection, yeah, with similar reasoning for "victory". The second example I am ambivalent on, I don't think that use is generically different from saying "A man!" when you see a man and the like—I selected the "victory" examples specifically because they're cases where it is not just an observation of a victory. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 00:15, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- Then freedom is also an interjection: [4], [5], [6]. --Lambiam 22:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- Stuff like this seems pretty interjection-y to me: "They were poor, but they were rich in faith, and when they died they shouted, 'Victory, victory!'" [1] "In the severest moments of the death-struggle, there was no intermission of the cry. 'Victory, victory, victory,' was still repeated." [2] "when in the rear of the army, and he heard the cannon, far from being frightened […] he cried, Victory! Victory!" [3] etc. Inclined to keep. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 14:36, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- If this is an interjection, I am going to an interjection sense to pwned, and headshot. Fay Freak (talk) 03:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- And goal (football cheer) and walkies (calling to a dog) and loser (shouting an insult) and and and Equinox ◑ 23:02, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- Here’s another one for our growing collection of interjected nouns: success.[7][8][9] And then there is waiter.[10] --Lambiam 20:41, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- Lovely. These are all unambiguously interjections syntactically: the question is which ones merit inclusion in a dictionary as such. The OED thinks victory does. The problem with the slippery slope idea is that we already have a good number of interjection lemmas that can be dismissed on similar grounds as any of these, e.g. (picking some random examples) apologies, condolences, battle stations, newsflash, checkmate, heads. So we might want to think about what the actual test(s) for inclusion are for an interjection, rather than simply stockpiling examples (of which we already have plenty)—unless it's just about lemmings. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 20:51, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- Good point. Are there any formal linguistic tests for interjections? — Sgconlaw (talk) 21:06, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- I guess it's not really something like that hinges on fine points of grammar like the participle vs. adjective discussions that people enjoy having: if you're shouting out a word by itself then it's an interjection by definition, even if it's also some part of speech (these are called "secondary interjections" in the literature). The question's just what the point of listing it as one would be. FWIW I don't get the conniptions about listing stuff like walkies or freedom or whatever as interjections if they're attestable and someone cares enough to add it, we're not short of space. The one category I'd probably exclude is "vocatives" or generally just exclaiming because something exists/happened (goal etc, and imo checkmate). I won't die on the hill of victory anyway, it just might be worth having a beer parlour discussion or something. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 21:19, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- Good point. Are there any formal linguistic tests for interjections? — Sgconlaw (talk) 21:06, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- Lovely. These are all unambiguously interjections syntactically: the question is which ones merit inclusion in a dictionary as such. The OED thinks victory does. The problem with the slippery slope idea is that we already have a good number of interjection lemmas that can be dismissed on similar grounds as any of these, e.g. (picking some random examples) apologies, condolences, battle stations, newsflash, checkmate, heads. So we might want to think about what the actual test(s) for inclusion are for an interjection, rather than simply stockpiling examples (of which we already have plenty)—unless it's just about lemmings. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 20:51, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- Here’s another one for our growing collection of interjected nouns: success.[7][8][9] And then there is waiter.[10] --Lambiam 20:41, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
- And goal (football cheer) and walkies (calling to a dog) and loser (shouting an insult) and and and Equinox ◑ 23:02, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
- The information of whether a given lexeme has been used hortatively within the corpus doesn't strike me as lexical information of that word. Additionally, having a distinct interjection section for these semantically indistinguishable cases isn't really worth anything from a usability perspective either. I'm casting a weak delete for now. I also think we should consider creating a new binding policy page for our parts of speech and their specific inclusion criteria. First English participles/adjectives, then German adjectives/adverbs and now interjections. We'd do ourselves a favor by writing down the consensus somewhere so that we don't have to relitigate everything or, even worse, end up in an internally inconsistent state (as we currently are with respect to ex- terms). Related: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2023/January § skill issue and whether a noun phrase should be included as an interjection only because it is frequently uttered in isolation. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 20:02, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- Leaning towards keep. If text appears as "Victory!" it would be an interjection. DonnanZ (talk) 11:53, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Keep if it's in the OED. That is, err on the side of; clear case it is not. (Oder so. Ist Deutsch erlaubt or streng verboten? Na ja, es gibt nicht unbedingt viel Sinn, in einer englischen Diskussion auf Deutsch zu schreiben. Aber macht Spass. Also lieber ignorieren und meine Fehler entschuldigen.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:46, 30 January 2023 (UTC)