Reconstruction talk:Proto-Dravidian/a-

This page needs significant work to incorporate the many varied derivatives of the demonstrative base /*a-/. As far as I can tell, there are four primary goals which must be achieved.

1. The various derived forms of /*a-/ must be grouped alongside their cognate forms under a proto-Dravidian header. (as Kannada: ಅವನು (avanu) & Tamil: அவன் (avaṉ) grouped under the proto-Dravidian header *a-van (“that man”). etc...)

2. Forms without clear cognates must be grouped in some alternative framework.

3. The entries on this page must be linked to pages (if they exist); and for those that do not exist, such pages should be made or requested.

4. This page should be linked to the pages for other proto-Dravidian demonstrative bases.

As future projects, it might be good to attempt to create a template for these words. Perhaps something like

Ancient Greek correlatives ^(edit)

type	interrogative	indefinite	(medial) demonstrative	proximal demonstrative	distal demonstrative	relative	indefinite relative	identity	other
basic	τίς	τις, ἔνιοι	†ὁ, οὗτος	ὅδε	ἐκεῖνος	ὅς	ὅστις	ὁ αὐτός (αὑτός), ὁμός	ἕτερος, ἄλλος
dual	πότερος	πότερος, ποτερός				ὁπότερος
quality	ποῖος	ποιός	†τοῖος, τοιοῦτος	τοιόσδε		οἷος	ὁποῖος	ὅμοιος	ἑτεροῖος, ἀλλοῖος
quantity	πόσος	ποσός	†τόσος, τοσοῦτος	τοσόσδε		ὅσος	ὁπόσος
manner	πῶς	πως	†τώς, †ὥς, οὕτως	ὧδε		ὡς	ὅπως	ὁμῶς	ἑτέρως, ἄλλως
method, path, place	πῇ	πῃ	τῇ, ταύτῃ	τῇδε	ἐκείνῃ	ᾗ	ὅπῃ		ἄλλῃ
place	ποῦ, †πόθι	που, †ποθι	ἐνταῦθα	ἐνθάδε	ἐκεῖ, ἔνθα, †ἐκεῖθι	οὗ, ἔνθα, †ὅθι	ὅπου, †ὁπόθι	αὐτόθι, ὁμοῦ	ἄλλοθι
source	πόθεν	ποθεν	†τόθεν, ἔνθεν, ἐντεῦθεν	ἐνθένδε	ἐκεῖθεν	ὅθεν	ὁπόθεν	†ὁμόθεν	ἄλλοθεν
destination	ποῖ, †πόσε	ποι	ἔνθα, ἐνταῦθα	ἐνθάδε, δεῦρο	ἐκεῖσε	οἷ	ὅποι, †ὁπόσε	αὐτόσε, ὁμόσε	ἄλλοσε
time	πότε, πῆμος	ποτέ, ποτε, τοτέ, ἐνίοτε	τότε, τῆμος	τημόσδε		ὅτε, ἦμος	ὁπότε, †ὁππῆμος	ἅμα	ἄλλοτε
exact time	πηνίκα		†τηνίκα, τηνικαῦτα	τηνικάδε		ἡνίκα	ὁπηνίκα	αὐτίκα
duration of time			τέως			ἕως
size, age	πηλίκος	πηλίκος	†τηλίκος, τηλικοῦτος	τηλικόσδε		ἡλίκος	ὁπηλίκος	ὁμῆλιξ
repetition	ποσάκις, ποσίνδα	ποσάκις	τουτάκις, τοσάκις			†ὁσάκις ὁποσάκις	ὁποσάκις
multiplication	ποσαπλάσιος					ὁσαπλάσιος, ὁσαπλασίων
order	πόστος	ποστός					ὁπόστος
† Forms rarely or never used in Classical Attic prose Relative also used in exclamations; either relative or indefinite relative used in indirect questions.

or

Latin correlatives ^(edit)

type	demonstrative			anaphoric	identity	interrogative/ relative	indefinite					negative	other
	proximal	medial	distal				relative	indefinite	universal	free choice	negative polarity
basic	hic	iste, istic	ille, illic	is	ipse, īdem	quis/quī	quisquis, quīcumque	quis, quī, quīdam, aliquis, aliquī, quispiam	quisque	quīvis, quīlibet	quisquam, ūllus, °aliquisquam	nēmō, nihil, nūllus	alius
dual						uter	utercumque	alteruter	uterque	utervīs, uterlibet		neuter	alter
place	hīc	istīc	illīc	ibī̆	ibī̆dem	ubī̆	ubiubi, ubī̆cumque	alicubī, uspiam	ubīque	ubivīs, ubilibet	usquam	nusquam, nūllibī	alibī, aliās
source	hinc	istinc	illinc	inde	indidem	unde	undecumque, undeunde	alicunde	undique	°undelibet			aliunde
destination	hūc, °hōrsum	istūc, °istōrsum	illūc, °illōrsum	eō	eōdem	quō, quōrsum	quōquō, quōcumque	aliquō, quōpiam, °aliquōvorsum		quōvīs, quōlibet	quōquam	nusquam, nūllōrsum	aliō, aliōrsum
method, means, path, place	hāc	istāc	illāc	eā	eādem	quā	quāquā, quācumque	aliquā	quāque	quāvīs, quālibet		nēquāquam, haudquāquam	aliā
manner	hōc modō	istō modō	illō modō	ita, sīc, eō modō	item, itidem	ut, quī, quō modō, quōmodo, quemadmodum	utut, utcumque, quōmodocumque	quī, quōdam modō, aliquō modō	utique	quōmodolibet	ūllō modō	nūllō modō	aliter, aliōquī, alterō/aliō modō
time	num, nunc		ōlim	tum, tunc	simul	quandō, ‡cum	cumque, quandōcumque, quandōque	quondam, aliquandō	quandōque	quandōlibet	umquam	numquam	aliās
quantity				tam	†tamen, †tandem	quam	†quamquam	aliquam		quamvīs, quamlibet
size				tantus	tantusdem	quantus	quantuscumque	aliquantus		quantusvīs, quantuslibet
quality				tālis		quālis	quālis, quāliscumque	aliquālis		quālislibet
number				tot	totidem	quot	quotquot, quotcumque	aliquot		quotlibet
order				totus		quotus	quotuscumque	aliquotus		quotuslibet
repetition				totiēns		quotiēns	quotiēnscumque	aliquotiēns		quotiēnslibet
multiplication				totuplex		quotuplex
† Turned conjunction with original meaning somewhat dissimulated ° Rare ‡only used as a conjunction, not as an interrogative

.

I will try to work on this as much as possible.

                 Terms to add to page: an ongoing list

• South Dravidian:
  • Tamil: ஆண்டை (āṇṭai), ஆண்டு (āṇṭu), அம்பர் (ampar), அந்தண்டை (antaṇṭai), அங்காலே (aṅkālē), அங்கோடிங்கோடு (aṅkōṭiṅkōṭu), அங்ஙனம் (aṅṅaṉam), அங்குத்தை (aṅkuttai), அங்கண் (aṅkaṇ), அனை (aṉai), அந்த (anta), அது (atu), அத்தனை (attaṉai), அந்தந்த (antanta), அப்படி (appaṭi), அங்கிட்டு (aṅkiṭṭu), அதோள் (atōḷ), அவ்வது (avvatu), அவ்வண்ணம் (avvaṇṇam), அவ் (av), அவ்வருகு (avvaruku), அவ்வழி (avvaḻi), அவ்வாறு (avvāṟu), அவ்விடம் (avviṭam), அப்புறம் (appuṟam), அவ்வோ (avvō), அவ்வோன் (avvōṉ), அவண் (avaṇ), அப்பொழுது (appoḻutu), அப்போதைக்கப்போது (appōtaikkappōtu), அப்போழ்து (appōḻtu), ஆயுள் (āyuḷ), அன்று (aṉṟu), அன்றன்ற (aṉṟaṉṟa), அன்றை (aṉṟai), அன்றைக்கன்ற (aṉṟaikkaṉṟa), அன்றைத்தினம் (aṉṟaittiṉam), அன்ன (aṉṉa), அன்னணம் (aṉṉaṇam), அனைத்து (aṉaittu), அவ்வளவு (avvaḷavu), அப்பால் (appāl), அன்றைக்கு (aṉṟaikku), ஆயவன் (āyavaṉ), ஆயிட்டு (āyiṭṭu), ஆயிடை (āyiṭai), ஆயுள் (āyuḷ)
  • Malayalam: അവിടെ (aviṭe), അപ്പോൾ (appōḷ), അന്നേരം (annēraṁ), അക്കാലത്ത് (akkālattŭ), അന്നാൾ (annāḷ)
  • Kodagu/Kodava: (script missing) avëⁿ, ava, avu/aeŋga, adï, alli, alliñji, attï, attaṭṭi, attiñji, appara, akka, akkatiñji, akka·kaṇe, akkale·, akkanne·, andï, accë, accakï, annatë, antë, annane, a·taratï, annata·ŋgï, a·naŋguṇḍï, a·lï,
  • Kurumba:
  • Kannada:
  • Tulu: ಅಕರ (akara), ಆಚೆ (āce), ಆಬದಿ (ābadi), ಆಕಡೆ (ākaḍe), ಅತ್ತ (atta), ಅನಂತರ (anantara), ಆಮೇಲೆ (āmēle) , ಅನಂತರ (anantara) , ಅಯಿಟೆ (ayiṭe) , ಅಲ್ (alŭ) , ಅಲ್ಲಿ (alli) , ಅವುರ್ತ್ (avurtŭ) , ಔರ್ತ್ (aurtŭ) , ಅಲ್ಪ (alpa) , ಆಪೆಡ್ (āpeḍŭ), ಐಟೆ (aiṭe), ಔಳ್ (auḷŭ), ಆತ್ಲಾ (ātlā), ಆತೆ (āte), ಆತೇ (ātē)
• South Central Dravidian:
  • Telugu:
  • Gondi: (script missing) ōr/ōl, ōṛ/ōṛk, ad/au,
  • Konda: (script missing) vānṟu, akan, akar, akad, akeŋ, atal, abe/bān, abeṇi/bāṇi, abekan, aya, ayakan
  • Manda:
  • Kui: (script missing) ādi, āari, āvi, āvari, āmba, āne, āneṭi, āru, āvi
  • Pengo: (script missing) avan / aven / havan, avar, adel / hadel, avek, adi / adaŋ, avaŋ, ā, āy, anda, andel, andaŋ, andaliŋ, acaka, ace, acek, anṭaŋ, anṭiŋ, anṭiŋtan, anṭiŋdan, ani, aneŋ, abe, habe, ambe, aleŋ, anay,
• Central Dravidian:
  • Kolami:
• North Dravidian:
  • Kurukh: (script missing) ās, ār/abṛar, ād, abṛā, ā; ābīrī, adā, ahāy, ajgō, annē, annū, ānū, anti, aō̃gē, aõŋgē, asan, hasan, attrā, hattrā, ayyā, hayyā,
  • Brahui: (script missing) dā, dād, dāfk; dahun, daun, duhun, dākā/dākān, dāxa, dāng, dāṛē/dāṛēk, dāsā/dāskān, dāvadī,
  • Malto: (script missing) áh, ár, áth, á; áw áwe, athi, aháṉ, ande, andeke, aṉhaṉ, ani, ánko, ano, anond, anopan, áṉy, áṭi, ná

Hk5183 (talk) 16:17, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Hk5183 From which source did you get this reconstruction? Kritixilithos (talk) 17:10, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

From [Burrow & Emeneau Dravidian Etymological Dictionary 2nd edition]. Basically, I know that there are many many more derivatives in other Dravidian languages but I haven't had the time to look up the terms, especially since I can't read most of the scripts. Hk5183 (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

I see, but that doesn't list the reconstruction itself. Anyways, digging through {{R:dra:DL}}, I found the following, "I have identified the deictic roots as *aH, *iH-, *uH- and proposed a rule *H → w/__ + a, by which ∗aw-ant̠u, *iw-ant̠u and *uw-ant̠u, *aw-ar, *aw-ay, etc. were derived" (p215, Krishnamurthy). ("*H → w/__ + a" means, if I understood correctly, that *H is replaced by w (Krishnamurthy's transliteration for what we (Wiktionary) represent with v) when followed by a). So you are mostly right in your reconstruction anyways. Kritixilithos (talk) 08:21, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Hk5183 I edited the page to match Krishnamurthy's reconstructions, and removed the Tamil-Malayalam *at under "that". We should come up with a transliteration scheme for Proto-Dravidian, I've started Wiktionary:About_Proto-Dravidian a while back, especially because our transliteration in existing entries differ from Krishnamurthy's, like us choosing v instead of w.

(forgot to add tildes) Kritixilithos (talk) 16:17, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I knew that my page wasn't researched enough, & I've been too busy with classes to work on this. I thought it would be better to have a lousy entry than none at all... Anyway, that provides a starting point as well as a place for other Wiktionarians to provide input. I will research dra-pro transliteration schemes & transliteration for Dravidian languages with few or no entries. Hk5183 (talk) 15:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC)