Talk:წამალი

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: For Georgian ძუმელა (ʒumela, “cockscomb”) Kiria-Chukhua reconstruct Proto-Georgian-Zan *ʒ₁umel-, deriving Mingrelian ჯუმენე (ǯumene, “Amaranthus? red variety”) here as well. There's also Laz ჯუმენე (cumene, “spinach”) (ACTUALLY! Tandilava isn't sure what it refers to, and Kiria-Chukhua copied the definition after him. Can you look it up in your new Laz dictionary? Marr glosses Laz as "pigweed" which is obviously, which makes more sense obviously).

Also obviously l ~ n is strange კვარია (talk) 18:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@კვარია: my shiny new dictionary has Laz ჯუმენი (cumeni, “Amaranthus retroflexus”), also called მჯუმენი (mcumeni), მჯუმონი (mcumoni). I was interested in this word because of Middle Armenian ծմել (cmel, “Blitum capitatum or Amaranthus blitum; spinach”), present also in the dialects with various forms and meanings. They are supposedly from Kartvelian. Vahag (talk) 19:54, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I have all of these forms in Bukaklishi as well but he doesn't give an actual definition and just says "type of plant". Which forms are derived from Georgian? კვარია (talk) 20:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I meant all the Armenian forms are from Kartvelian: Middle Armenian ծմել (cmel), ծիմէլ (cimēl), dialectal զիմել (zimel). I don't know anything about the relationship between the Kartvelian words. Vahag (talk) 20:28, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I see. Is this in Acharyan or original research? The words look similar indeed კვარია (talk) 20:33, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

It is Acharyan. He is certainly correct. The words are identical in form (ծ (c) is probably pronounced /dz/ here) and meaning. Since our words are late and are found only in parts of Armenia close to Georgia (Khotorjur, Hamshen, Yerevan, Gazakh), they are borrowed from you. Vahag (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

If it's with dz then ძუმელა (ʒumela) makes sense. Georgian-Zan isn't secure but I could say "compare them". Georgian წამალი (c̣amali) imho can't be related here კვარია (talk) 20:49, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Vahag (talk) 20:51, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan Well.. According to Orbeliani ძუმელა (ʒumela) is Armenian. When is your word is first attested? Because he mentioned Armenian ზიმელ (zimel) (~ զիմել (zimel)) კვარია (talk) 21:00, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

It is attested since the 12th century, which for us is considered late. Orbeliani cannot judge a borrowing that happened centuries ago. I assure you this is a Georgian word. The shape is too barbarous for us :) Vahag (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)